Tanknet.org > Venezuela in talks to buy Russian tanks -- Interfax

Luckyorwhat

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1156

Probably a mis-quote on the type, right?

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds...afx5568215.html

QUOTE

MOSCOW, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Venezuela is negotiating to buy T-72M tanks to add to a long list of military spending in Russia, Interfax agency quoted a defence industry source as saying on Friday.

Venezuela, the most strident critic of the United States in Latin America and benefiting from a surge in oil revenues, has announced plans to spend over $30 billion on upgrading its armed forces.

It has already bought $4.4 billion worth of Russian weapons, including warplanes, helicopters and Kalashnikov rifles. Russian officials have said talks on purchases of submarines, armoured personnel carriers and anti-aircraft systems are under way.

The unnamed source told Interfax that contract talks on a tank order were now also in progress, but did not say how many tanks were involved. Russian officials declined to comment.

The source said Venezuela was interested in T-72Ms -- a tank designed in the 1970s but upgraded with modern weapons and electronics.

Last month Russia said it was loaning Venezuela $1 billion to buy military equipment from Russian manufacturers.

President Hugo Chavez supported Russia in its war against Georgia over the rebel region of South Ossetia in August, and has said he expects Russian President Dmitry Medvedev to visit Venezuela during his trip to Latin America next month.

Chavez, known for his anti-American tirades, hosted a visit by Russian bombers this month. Russian warships will hold exercises off Venezuela in November, the first time they have held manoeuvres off the Americas since the Cold War.

(Writing by Oleg Shchedrov; Editing by Kevin Liffey) Keywords: RUSSIA VENEZUELA/TANKS

tf.TFN-Europe_newsdesk@thomsonreuters.com

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Juan Sosa

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1313

If they are really buying T-72M tanks as reported the trend of buying second rate weapons will prove to be no accident.

LeoTanker

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1645

Sounds odd to say the least. I heard they are interested in BMP-3s, but old T-72s just doesnt make sence.. I wish Sweden had a military budget like Venezuela btw

crazyinsane105

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1728

QUOTE(LeoTanker @ Sun 19 Oct 2008 1645)

Sounds odd to say the least. I heard they are interested in BMP-3s, but old T-72s just doesnt make sence.. I wish Sweden had a military budget like Venezuela btw

Last I heard they were interested in buying T-90S tanks.

JamesG123

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1735

More signs of Chaves' true colors.

Instead of investing these transitory profits in the country's infrestructure and education, he's buying weapons to stoke his own ego and cement his power.

Luckyorwhat

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1834

Crazy, known quantity, 100<1000?

QUOTE(JamesG123 @ Sun 19 Oct 2008 1635)

More signs of Chaves' true colors.

Instead of investing these transitory profits in the country's infrastructure and education, he's buying weapons to stoke his own ego and cement his power.

Arms sales are funny that way, if it's an ally then they're wise, if not... Personally feel less money in communist education system might make for happier students, and putting transitory money into infrastructure would leave you with an unsupportable infrastructure:) Tanks seem a better investment than bonds these days, Chavez might be doing something right. Unfortunately as you said those tanks will likely be used against freedom-loving Venezuelans.

crazyinsane105

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1907

QUOTE(Luckyorwhat @ Sun 19 Oct 2008 1834)

Crazy, known quantity, 100<1000?
Arms sales are funny that way, if it's an ally then they're wise, if not... Personally feel less money in communist education system might make for happier students, and putting transitory money into infrastructure would leave you with an unsupportable infrastructure:) Tanks seem a better investment than bonds these days, Chavez might be doing something right. Unfortunately as you said those tanks will likely be used against freedom-loving Venezuelans.

No I don't know the known quantity they were after. Just that they had expressed interest in buying T-90S tanks.

Lampshade111

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1920

Buying T-72Ms? Not even T-72M1s and not even modernized?

crazyinsane105

Sun 19 Oct 2008 1921

QUOTE(Lampshade111 @ Sun 19 Oct 2008 1920)

Buying T-72Ms? Not even T-72M1s and not even modernized?

You don't really need a modern T-72 to crush demonstrations or protests.

JamesG123

Sun 19 Oct 2008 2047

QUOTE(Luckyorwhat @ Mon 20 Oct 2008 0334)

Crazy, known quantity, 100<1000?
Arms sales are funny that way, if it's an ally then they're wise, if not...

All else being equal, big ticket offensive arms purchases by a country that has no serious external threats and lots of internal problems is never wise.

Bearded-Dragon

Mon 20 Oct 2008 0504

QUOTE(Luckyorwhat @ Mon 20 Oct 2008 0734)

Crazy, known quantity, 100<1000?
Arms sales are funny that way, if it's an ally then they're wise, if not... Personally feel less money in communist education system might make for happier students, and putting transitory money into infrastructure would leave you with an unsupportable infrastructure:) Tanks seem a better investment than bonds these days, Chavez might be doing something right. Unfortunately as you said those tanks will likely be used against freedom-loving Venezuelans.

My goodness, an attempt at a balanced viewpoint. Quick, burn the heretic!

m4a1

Mon 20 Oct 2008 1311

Polish soruce says it will be T-72s but deeply modernized, using elements that are normally used in T-90 tanks. This is quite possible and more affordable than the new T-90Ss to Venezuela.

jmcmtank

Mon 20 Oct 2008 1504

According to Defence Talk.com it's T62 they are after!

QUOTE

He said Venezuela needed tanks "because the French AMX tanks we got 30 years ago are quite old now, and the Scorpio tanks from Britain are also quite old. We're buying mid-sized T-62 (Russian) tanks ... reconnaissance tanks and other models offered us."

JamesG123

Mon 20 Oct 2008 2107

QUOTE(jmcmtank @ Tue 21 Oct 2008 0004)

According to Defence Talk.com it's T62 they are after!

heh. I guess "modernization" is all relative.

Actually thinking about it, it might be a good deal. If Venezuela can get the T-62 hulls for the cost to haul them out of the Russian depots they've been sitting in for 30 years and put a few hundred thousand $ worth in overhauls, nightvision and FCS upgrades, ERA kits, and maybe 125mm tubes, and they'd still be cheaper than T-72s (and an order of magnitude less than new production tanks).

Still rather ill-suited for the country's terrain and likely conflicts. Hugo could buy the best gear the Russians offer and they would still just be somewhat more expensive hard targets if he finally goads the US into taking a swing at him.

Of that shopping list, BMP-3s are probably all they could concievably need. Amphibious and tracked for crossing rough swampy terrain. A good flexible mix of firepower and (just) enough armor to deal with most likely threats. Most importantly gives armored mobility to the massed infantry that will still be the primary force of the Venezuelan Army.

jupehie

Tue 21 Oct 2008 1337

Looks like Russia is going to sell tanks and other stuff (worth 2 billion usd) also to Libya:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081020/wl_nm/...ssia_libya_arms
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=477486&sid=wor

LeoTanker

Tue 21 Oct 2008 1346

QUOTE(jmcmtank @ Mon 20 Oct 2008 1504)

According to Defence Talk.com it's T62 they are after!

Well, I read on moscowtimes.com today that it is the famous T-92 tank that the Venezuelans are after. So the bidding on what tank that eventually (if ever) will be sold is still open it seems..

R011

Tue 21 Oct 2008 1447

QUOTE(jmcmtank @ Mon 20 Oct 2008 1604)

According to Defence Talk.com it's T62 they are after!

It would be interesting to see what he really said in Spanish. I wouldn't be surprized if he was misquoted by a reporter who knows little about Russian military equipment. It might well be T-64, T-72, or T-92.

alejandro_

Tue 21 Oct 2008 1832

QUOTE

It would be interesting to see what he really said in Spanish. I wouldn't be surprized if he was misquoted by a reporter who knows little about Russian military equipment. It might well be T-64, T-72, or T-92.

Actually, this is what has been discussed in Spanish forums. The journalist did not know much or made a mistake. Not the first time it happens.

alejandro_

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1421

The latest information in Spanish speaking forums is that Russia has offered BMP-3, Sprut-SD and T-72M1M. BMP-3 would be very useful to naval infantry. It is rather strange to offer T-72M1M instead of T-90, I don't think there are many T-72M1 in Russia and Venezuela don't operate them They would replace AMX-30. If Sprut-SD is bought it would be the first export client.

Tuccy

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1440

QUOTE(alejandro_ @ Wed 26 Nov 2008 2021)

The latest information in Spanish speaking forums is that Russia has offered BMP-3, Sprut-SD and T-72M1M. BMP-3 would be very useful to naval infantry. It is rather strange to offer T-72M1M instead of T-90, I don't think there are many T-72M1 in Russia and Venezuela don't operate them They would replace AMX-30. If Sprut-SD is bought it would be the first export client.

Well, T-72M1 was just an export/license variant of T-72A. I smell "We have hundreds of T-72A rusting in depots, let's call them T-72M1M and sell 'em to Hugo who won't care and would pay us as for T-95M, as long as he has something to parade around"

bojan

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1511

QUOTE(Tuccy @ Wed 26 Nov 2008 2040)

Well, T-72M1 was just an export/license variant of T-72A. I smell "We have hundreds of T-72A rusting in depots, let's call them T-72M1M and sell 'em to Hugo who won't care and would pay us as for T-95M, as long as he has something to parade around"

T-72M1M is not sub-version od the T-72M1 but upgraded version of T-72S, which is export version of T-72B1. A bit confusing, ain't it?

alejandro_

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1533

QUOTE

T-72M1M is not sub-version od the T-72M1 but upgraded version of T-72S, which is export version of T-72B1. A bit confusing, ain't it?

The upgrade was shown in a T-72B1, but I thought you could apply it to any T-72 variant.

And why no T-90? maybe because T-90 plant is busy with Indian orders?

QUOTE

Hugo who won't care and would pay us as for T-95M, as long as he has something to parade around"

This is more politics, but Venezuela is quite happy with Rosoboronexport services, and Russia gave a 1 billion $ credit. Very significant breakthrough for Russian defence systems...

By the way, Peru could also be interested in buying some second hand T-72.

Tuccy

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1555

QUOTE(bojan @ Wed 26 Nov 2008 2111)

T-72M1M is not sub-version od the T-72M1 but upgraded version of T-72S, which is export version of T-72B1. A bit confusing, ain't it?

Whoops, missed that one, thought M1M is A/M1 with B1/S goodies...

Btw, just to get it correctly atleast THIS time

So T-72S is generally T-72B1, ie without ATGM system? Or also with worse armor etc.?

Colin

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1707

Well the one thing I noted in Venezuela (beside the women) is their absolute disdain for repairing and looking after equipment. Within 5 years 50% will likely not be able to move.

bojan

Wed 26 Nov 2008 1756

QUOTE(Tuccy @ Wed 26 Nov 2008 2155)

So T-72S is generally T-72B1, ie without ATGM system? Or also with worse armor etc.?

No ATGM, glacis layout of the older 1985 version, less ERA bricks (no idea why), no meteorological sensor on turret (but not all Soviet B/B1 have it either).

Lampshade111

Thu 27 Nov 2008 0544

QUOTE(bojan @ Wed 26 Nov 2008 1511)

T-72M1M is not sub-version od the T-72M1 but upgraded version of T-72S, which is export version of T-72B1. A bit confusing, ain't it?

So why isn't it called the T-72SM? I swear the Russians do this stuff on purpose.

Is the modernized T-72B (Relikt ERA, thermal imager, etc.) still called the T-72BM and do the Russians still plan on performing this upgrade for part of their fleet?

Have any T-90As been fitted with Relikt ERA yet BTW?