Guys:

When SWAT & other Special police squads were established in the late 1960s & early 1970s they used to be somewhat 'eclectically' equipped: AR15s, shotguns, Uzi's & even Mac10s; when did the MP-5 supplant them all & become the 'weapon of choice' for said SWAT teams?

TiA

nickm

It was the 1980 SAS rescue at the Iranian Embassy that made it really famous.

The photos of the MP-5 armed rescue team became part of HK advertising and marketing.

http://www.hkpro.com/hkembassy.htm

Original BBC footage of the Iranian Embassy rescue in 1980:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yD4iD71uOw...feature=related

That and the MP5 is just an all around excellent SMG. Very accurate, reliable, low recoil, and it uses a very common caliber. It is better than most assault rifles in terms of size, and is better in terms of accuracy, stopping power, and recoil, than most compact SMGs.

Even today it is rather uncommon for SWAT teams to be facing an enemy with real body armor, and you don't have to worry as much about over penetration as if you were using an assault rifle.

Guys:

Thanks to all who replied; I remember the 1980 Embassy Siege QUITE well...so, that was what put the MP5 on the map then?

nickm

If you want an SMG and you are worried about body armor, get an MP-5-10(? - 0mm MP-5).

Mostly. The SAS, in turn, was influenced by GSG 9, having swapped knowledge back and forth during the latter's creation and provided a couple troopers to handle the then all-new flashbang grenades for the Germans in Operation Feuerzauber at Mogadishu in 1977. However, the MP 5 actually played little role in the raid on the hijacked Landshut, GSG 9 going in with S&W Model 19s (?). Though an MP 5 was brought up quickly when the .38 Special rounds failed to penetrate a cockpit seat behind which one of the terrorists was ducking.

Just came back to Shanghai from Hong Kong. The 3 SWAT guys I saw patrolling the HK airport were all armed with MP5 with similar set up of a sight (aimpoint?) and a torch light under barrel.

Some of them looked like children but some look really the business. They still have the occasional beefy English (I presume) chaps in the HK airport SWAT.

In Singapore, we've taken the (silly) step of having a mix of National Service soldiers and National Service policemen patrol the airport. Those that I saw look like skinny teenagers and does not inspire any confidence in spite of the fierce-looking sunglasses issued to hide their lack of experience.

The soldiers carry SAR-21 and the police MP5. Their appearance only serve to encourage would-be crims to snatch their weapons. I hope they are not loaded as "friendly fire" or "collateral damage" are the other things that comes to mind.

However, all is not lost as we also have Gurkhas lurking about just in case. More sensibly, these fellows use shotguns, MP5s - and less sensibly - the kukri knife.

Chino, could you tell whether or not the MP-5s you saw were full-auto or semi only?

I can imagine how armed policemen will react if I got close enough to examine their MP5.

Just look for the happy switch.


Though, you could always ask. Last time I was in Germany, I chatted up the Border Guard at the Customs area about his sidearm. He chatted for a second, as long as the time we had between his mate finishing our paperwork and the next 'customer' allowed. He didn't seem to mind either.

Coming back from ODS in '91 we had a layover at Gatwick for a couple of hours. For whatever reason, they had an armed contingent of Metropolitan Police providing security for the terminal they let us deplane into for a while. Most of them had MP5s.

When I toured the Eastern Med I could tell what country we were in by the kind of SMGs the cops had. In Turkey the guy directing traffic has a slung MP-5. The kids in Greece (chino, your story about Singapore apt reminded me of the poor scared kid in Athens Customs) carry Stens.

Ah, c'mon, Chino. Think of the "There I was" tales you could spin here on TankNet... Actually, I had the same thought, that walking up to an officer and asking about their weapons would not be well-received.

I don't quite know what etiquette or body-language is appropriate for stopping three heavily-armed police commandos on patrol at the airport, and asking about their weapon.

Plus, unfortunately, I didn't grow up always on the right side of the law so I am never comfortable around police. Military - fine - I can identify with that and I spoke to a lot of PLA and PAP chaps in China every opportunity I get.

Walk up, look confused and lost, and politely ask them where the heck baggage claim is in english. If one of them responds thank them and say that you're a long way from home. Then glance at the MG, blink, think of the last tim you used the happy switch on something and ask your question. Get an answer, smile and thank them, tell them to have a nice day and then move on.

It's like picking up women, but there's less commitment.

I once examined a MP5 (sliding stock) on display at a Singapore Prisons police exhibition. I don't seem to recall that they were semi only, so they must be full auto. The thing that struck me holding the weapon was that it was extremely ergo, but heavy.

Heavy in the sense that it weighed almost as much as an M16A1, but in a much more compact package.

Talking about examining policemen's weapons...

I was in Pattaya Thailand more than 10 years ago at the home of a female "friend" one night for dinner. Halfway through, a police boy friend of hers dropped in unannounced.

He was this Thai version of "John Wayne" with large sergeant's stripes. He was all swagger and attitude and was wearing a big silver revolver with mid-length barrel. Tagging along was a sheepish-looking private with a regular issue .38.

Obviously looking for trouble, I did my best to distract him while we conversed in broken English. He boasted about how many people he shot dead - 30. I asked about his pride and joy pistol and he said snugly that the Private had a "lousy" regular issue .38 whereas he has a big one - Magnum.

Somehow Thai policemen can buy and carry their own weapons.

I told him that I'm a corporal in the army but unlike his one Private, I had seven men in my command and I carry a rifle. That didn't go down well so I again returned to talk about his pistol. I asked him to show it to me and he agreed. He removed the rounds - they were big .357 with a silver cartridge case and blue hollowpoint bullets.

I played around with the gun and our Thai woman friend freaked out. She had a 8-yo kid and she was afraid a shooting was gonna happen. She finally chased him out.

By the mid '80s the Uzi was out and the MP-5 was the all about buzz in the SOF magazines.

I got to fire one at a gun show about 1985 and the closed bolt action was impressive. My previous SMG experience was mainly the M-3A1.

There is a clip on youtube of Philippines army firing a refurbished M3 with silencer at the range. At fullauto, it's accuracy and controllability was impressive. The guy dropped all the silhouette targets with one long burst. Range was probably 50m to 100m.

About the Uzi...

Did any of the Israeli SWAT or specops use the MP5 - it being German and all...? Or did they stick with the Uzi?

http://www.timawa.net/m3/m3gen2.htm

Mid 1980s and we're on a joint patrol with the BGS. So they open their trunk to pass out some coffee to us and there are their MP5s. Says we, can we check them out and handed them one of our M3A1s. A great time was had thereafter chuckling over the M3s and what a compelet POS were they.

Actually I'm surprised the Colt 9mm SMG (Subgun version of the M16) isn't more popular. I tried a civilian carbine version and it took me a whole 10 seconds to familiarize myself with it, it was just a AR-15 in a different caliber. One with a M203 UBGL might make a nice combo.

According to an article in a recent issue of "Small Arms Review", the Colt SMG is actually the most popular SMG in US police circles, due in large part to ease of crossover training from M16/M4s. I have wondered about this, because there has been so little mention elsewhere. Could they have been mistaken for M4s?

FWIW, I did get to shoot a Colt SMG a few years ago. One mag, good fun. However, not being a trained sub-gunner, I could not make a real evaluation.

A local range has a 9mm AR-style carbine for rent. I'll have to check it out. Contributions for ammo appreciated. []

They stick with Mini Uzi SMGs, mainly for political as well as budgetary reasons. The original Uzi isn't that well suited for CT units, since it fires from an open bolt. The preferred variant therefore is the Mini Uzi, which fires from a closed bolt.

The Colt Model 635 SMG is also in limited service with Israeli SF units.

King: "STEN" guns?? Jeez King what year were YOU there last? The first time I was aware of what Athens Airport Security was packing it was Uzis in 1970 & 73;

nickm

Well, originally it was "Brown Besses", but he caught himself before he clicked "Add Reply".

Note that he didn't mention "airports" per se.

It was in April 1996. The kid looked like a scared young draftee, he was behind the line booths at Customs/Entry(?) at Athens. I don't think he was Airport Security unless Greek AS wears OD fatigues. There were also two APCs and a sandbagged MG position outside the front entrance. Looked like an FN MAG from the glimpse I got of it. Other soldier types in fatigues standing around, not scared like the kid inside. The guide hustled us onto the bus PDQ.

I have no idea what was going on.

Well, the Imia crisis was only a few months or so old by then during which Greece and Turkey came the closest to war since 1974 so that could explain as to why he was scared

Some info on the crisis Imia.

Still its odd that they took out the STENs from storage . Keep in mind that when I was on training in Crete in 93 a unit (some kind of guard unit for fuel depots) next to my camp had Garands and BARs
When I came back to Cyprus some reserve mobilization units had Brens and #4 enfields in their armories. I will spare you on the fate of those weapons when they were replaced by G3s a few years later...

Those ceremonial guards. CSTRTN - the guys in tutus, white hose, and pompoms - drilled with M1s.

Evzons?

Mid-1980s, on transit at Dubai OTW to London.

The day before, US fighter bombers (F-111?) flew from England to bomb Gadaffi's home, killing some children, his relatives.

At Dubai airport, the guards were armed with AK47 - first time I saw one "live".

Accompanied by a pistol-armed officer, they approached us at the transit lounge and separated the Americans from everyone else. And then they body searched them in full view of all of the other passengers with AK47s covering them.

Yeah, that's it. Thanx.

Armed airport plod in UK tend to use MP-5SFA. No happy switch.
The only time I got seriously concerned was when my Wife & I were transiting through Luton airport. Armed plod then (2001 - pre 9/11) were toting G36k sans happy switch. .223 of any variety is not a round that is going to stay inside one's intended victim; 9mm normally will. I mentioned this to other half, we relocated to one of the I beam support struts that held up the roof.
We had a 4 hr stop over there. Putting some serious steel between my loved one's and those G36k carrying plod seemed the safe course of action.

I have always asked myself, why were they armed with assault rifles?.

Charles

As far as I saw here, police on protection duty carries MP-5 or assualt rifles - saw our vz.58 in shots from airport and saw AUG (if I saw it correctly, it was a carbine variant, but with "wide" mag indicating 5.56mm, not the SMG mag of that 9mm variant) on a policeman guarding US embassy living quarters in Prague just after 09/11.
Austrian border guards on bicycles on Austrian-Slovakian borders were carrying AUGs.

they seem to be switching in Airports in the UK to the G36 when there is armed plod in the Airport [ive seen] they seem to have G36 with some kind of sight ACOG perhaps

They might be using frangible 5.56mm rounds in the assault rifles. The soldiers assigned to protect key installations like airports here in Singapore use them. They will not overpenetrate and seem to be hideously effective against unarmored humans from my limited experience. Not Hague Convention compatible, if I am not wrong.

Like Kaikun said, it's possible for 9mm to be more of an overpenetration hazard than 5.56, in both people and interior partitions. I've heard many people issued rifles in many situations are not permitted to have loaded magazines in said rifles.

IMO not having loaded mag in rifle is for a different reason other than penetration or not.

In Singapore when we do guard duty we have no mag in the weapon, but carry one mag with 5-rds in the pouch.

First reason is safety - to prevent misfire. Second reason is to prevent crims from snatching a loaded weapon.

Even more extreme, in Chinese cities, there are sometimes 2 sentries guarding entrances of camps, diplomatic areas etc. One carries the rifle with inserted mag (probably empty). The other has no rifle but wears a rifle mag pouch and a pistol - probably NCO.

Kaikun & Luckyorwhat,
Thank you for that reassurance. I was unaware that Frangible 5.56mm was available.

Charles

eons ago when I played Rainbow 6, there was an option for a MP-5 10mm caliber. Is this a real model or just a game mod? If real, how is performance vis-a-vis 9mm?

Here you go:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=118191

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=739226

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=431177

The first rounds through my Kel-Tec SU-16 (a semi-auto, gas-operated rifle) was frangible 5.56 ammo at an indoor range. The rifle functioned flawlessly, and the 25 yard zero held when I shot conventional ammo outdoors. The ammo cost around $30.00 US for a box of 50.

Not even necessary. Velocity and short distance makes all .223 more or less frangible.

In books, 7.5" for 9mm and 7.5" & 8" for 5.56 (these didn't come apart, just interesting)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31_2.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31_3.htm


5.56 penetrates more wall materials than 9mm, but tumbles:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1_2.htm

5.56 penetrates less sand than pistol calibers:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7_2.htm

Real test; walls spaced apart like rooms - 9mm penetrates all and goes straight, 5.56 tumbles after first wall, often peels off and misses other walls altogether, in one case tumbling 5.56 was stopped by the drywall material itself at the third wall:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_4.htm


Furthermore case study, Dallas PD: ammo was chosen to minimize overpentetration, but is not frangible, just fast. Officers were obviously not informed of how their rifles would perform vs barriers. http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2007/26Mar07.html

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2007/26Mar07.html



Chino, understood. But I meant to refer to the OP in the empty mag remark.

Yes, Virginia there is (was?) an MP-5/10 in 10mm. From the timing of its appearance it was a ploy to sell them to the FBI which had just then adopted the 10mm as its standard caliber. I don't know if it was ever more than a prototype.

One of the M16 clonemakers catalogs(ed?) an upper receiver assembly in 10mm.

I've always had wet dreams about an M1/M2 Carbine in 10mm....

The MP-5/10 had a limited production run and was used by a couple US LE agencies including the FBI. In photographic evidence it's hard to tell apart from its more popular cousin the MP-5/40 though, both using a beefy straight stick magazine similar to the later UMP's in .40 or .45 cal.

http://www.hkpro.com/MP5-10.htm