http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/LSAT.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_S...ms_Technologies

Does this represent a new impetus in caseless ammo, more or less dormant since the G11 program?

Anyone know how far this program has progressed?

Opinions?


Falken

See the last section of this: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

The US Army is funding the Lightweight Small Arms Technologies development programme, with the aim of halving the weight of the current 5.56 mm M249 (FN Minimi) LMG and its ammunition. AAI Corporation is the lead contractor for the project and is responsible for the gun design. Two different cartridge designs are being tested, shown below in comparison with existing rounds. One is a polymer-cased telescoped round (by ARES), the other a caseless round (by ATK) based on HK G11 technology. The linked polymer-cased rounds are showing a 35% reduction in weight over conventional 5.56x45 ammunition, the caseless rounds a 50% weight reduction plus a 40% reduction in bulk. The preferred solution is the caseless round because of the greater reductions, with the plastic-cased round as a fall-back in case the caseless one meets with insuperable technical obstacles. The plastic-cased round is perceived as a lower risk and has currently made more progress, the gun having been extensively tested. If this project results in a service weapon, the earliest in-service date could be 2015.

The implication being that the M4 (or standard rifle) would be affected too, so as to maintain ammo commonality?


Falken

Indeed yes: AAI are already looking at a carbine to fire the new ammo, which may be in a larger calibre than 5.56mm. An entirely new gun design would be required

Bring it on! I want my 50rd/magazine rifle. In Full-Auto, plz. Just as God and the United States Colonial Marines intended!

Any idea if they've overcome the heat buildup issue noticed in the G11 project (from lack of thermal bleed via ejection of spent cases)?

The plastic-cased rounds look very futuristic (an aesthetic call, admittedly, but cool nonetheless).

Falken

From everything I've read Germany was on the verge of issuing the G11 to field units when the wall fell, the money ran out and H&K almost went under. I'd figured they had tackled the heat issue when they switched to the final propellant mix since the material I've read (mostly HKPro and other H&K rah rah sites, and several Jane's volumes) only mention heat buildup in the early prototypes.

I'd be interested to see what you have on it.

Steve

Tony is probably the SME on this topic. I'm just armed with out of date info and what I've picked up on random searches.

I didn't even know about this program until last month...

Falken

I am curious however as to why nothing has happened with the G11 since then. I mean some other countires must have been interested in it, and the Germans could have probably gotten enough for SF units too.

The LSAT uses a rotating chamber design and fires from an open bolt, so no danger of cook-offs.

I suspect that other nations would have been inhibited from buying the G11 (even if it were offered) by the very non-standard, single-source ammo (ordinary ammo factories would not have been equipped to make it). I expect that the cost for a small order would also have been very high.

At the time I also heard there were doubts about the complexity of the mechanism. Some forms of maint had to be done at higher levels than would be the case with conventional small arms. I too am curious how they fixed the 'heat-sink' issue.

Another question is how is the weapon cleared and chamber-checked?

The ammunition was fed by a rotating cylinder. Unlike a revolver it rotated back to front rather than left and right. At the 12 o'clock position the round would fall from the magazine into a chamber in the cylinder. It then rotated 90 degrees, aligned with the barrel and fired. It then spun 270 degrees to align with the magazine again. At the 6 o'clock position, 180 degrees from the feed position was a hole thru the bottom of the rifle. If a round was in the chamber when it reached there it would drop out of the rifle. There was a manual handle on the left side of the G11 that turned the cylinder to load and unload the chamber. Not quite as reassuring as pulling back the bolt and seeing and empty chamber, but I would guess if the rotating handle was in the unload position you could be fairly sure you had an unloaded weapon.

Steve, thanks for the explanation.

I just love that "you could be fairly sure you had an unloaded weapon." ND, anyone?

NOT picking on Steve, BTW. I would be a little nervous with that system. In fact, I don't completely trust myself with the conventional cased firearms.

Which should be fairly normal attitude when it comes to firearms security, right?..

When browsing Millitera.ru(field memoires, poems, diaries from conflicts the Soviet/Russian Army participated in), I stumbled upon anecdotal accounts on a clearing procedure developed by some Russian detachment commanders in Chechnya and applied whenever going to sleep after a lot of tiresome fighting on foot:

During this procedure, all the soldiers of a detachment would stand in a close circle, then detach the magazines from their rifles/RPK machine guns, and then pulled and released the cocking handle multiple times while pointing the rifle upwards. If someone left the mag on the rifle, rounds would fly out the ejection port and into the face of the man standing to his right hand

There is a very interesting article on the LSAT program in the "National Rifleman" magazine that I just got. It looks much further along than I realized and although everyone is hot on the caseless version I think the CT (Cased Telescoped) version looks the most promising. I would think the CT version would be easier to seal the breach with, and you would not have to make any major chemical changes to the propellant. The article also indicates that the CT and Caseless LMG mechanisms are substantially different with the caseless mechanism still under wraps. Good stuff!

They would be far better served by working on a polymer link to replace the M27.

Simon

I take it that whoever left mags in their rifle received immediate counseling...

Negligent discharges due to improper clearing of firearms are an ongoing theme on USian gun fora. Rule 1 (Treat ALL firearms as if they are loaded), seems to be the first forgotten, all too often.

If we eventually select this caseless ammunition for service, I hope we develop an assault rifle with an advanced burst mode similar to that of the G11.

Any news on the so called MR-C being developed by Crye Associates? Have heard very little of this weapon outside of it's apperance in the Ghost Recon series.
http://www.cryeassociates.com/12.htm#

I always assumed it was just a stand-in mockup for "future individual weapon +3", like that MetalStorm pepperbox handgun that the FFW concept was using for a while. Not meant to represent an actual system, just a place-holder to aid visualization.


Falken

Interesting. Appears to use the same sort of rotating chamber as the G11, albeit perhaps in a fixed position, rather than the G11's recoiling working parts idea.

I found the National Rifleman article I mentioned online - and there is a VIDEO of the CT system in action!

http://www.nrapublications.org/TAR/LSAT_video.asp

http://www.nrapublications.org/TAR/LSAT.asp

Very cool "swinging" chamber on the CT gun! The way it ejects forward could be problem solved for a truly ambi bullpup.

I am not a fan of bullpups but I bet that sure would make Tony happy!

From AUSA 2008:









According to SMGLee (MP.net member and the guy who took the photos):



Falken