Does anybody know fragmentation protection equipment that includes protection for groin, butt, legs and arms?
Basically a flak BDU?

Another question (my plan B ):
What's the current area weight of fragmentation-protection and level I vests?

What sort/class of fragment?

The US used to issue a "Flak diaper" to go along with the Vietnam issue flak vests. I understand it was very unpopular.

They typical flak vest norm fragment. I think it was 80 Joule.


edit: forget about

STANAG 2920
450m/s, 1.1 gram = ~ 111 Joule
That's below SK I and level I.
That's the protection level of 80's and 90's anti-fragmentation vests before level I or level II vests became popular as carriers for hard plates

Thanks for keyword.
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...bayphotohosting
Looks like groin/butt only.

I'm interested in whether full fragmentation protection was attempted (95% of fragments only, not the large ones).
Arm wounds can be mission kill for the soldier, leg wound can be a mobility kill (and lethal) and require attention of comrades.
Soldiers in hospital for avoidable minor injuries means understrength infantry units and reduced cohesion/team work.

The hidden effects beyond the "% of KIA or WIA avoidable" effect might justify the extra weight in my opinion.
Bullet protection level III to IV may be good for LIC and for mech inf in HIC, but I assume a greater importance of frag protection than bullet protection for light infantry.

That's why I am so interested.
All that I found so far were blast protection / EOD suits for mounted or dismounted but limited agility personnel.



edit: I have "Jane's Personnel Combat Equipment 2004/2004"; it shows some abdomen protectors, but no full arm/leg anti-frag protection.except for EOD personnel.

The weight aside, you'd end up restricting mobility to the point where you're combat ineffective at the start. You may save some people who would otherwise have an extremity wound, but (at least in the current environment) you'd make up for it in heat casualties.


I remember an EOD like suits that someone was developing to give to HMMWV crews a while back... the idea was that if they can't up-armor the hummers fast enough, you can armor the people inside who typically would be mounted (gunners, drivers) to help protect them against IEDs. As you described, it provided fragmentation protection to extremities. Like the diapers in vietnam, I doubt you could get anyone to wear them... you couldn't move if you had to dismount and it's too bloody hot to wear.

Like the armor schemes developed for battleships, militaries settled for an all or nothing setup -- it's not practical to protect everything, so protect the vitals (torso, noggin) that are the major cause of fatal injuries, and accept that you can't cover everything without sacrificing mobility.

Minor threadjacking:

When did various countries adopt infantry "Flak vests"? I'm refering to pre-kevlar vests. The US did in the early 50's (Korean war). The British used American vests in Northern Ireland. When did everyone else start to adopt them as standard issue?


lastdingo contact me, I might have something that might be useful.

Germany did in the early 90's or late 80's iirc.
Pakistan did in the 90's iirc.
UK did so in the 70's iirc.
The French transited to hard body armour in the mid- or early 90's, so they had most likely flak vests before.

Some older designs existed in WW I (all major nations), WW2 (especially USSR, Japan and at the time of Okinawa also a predecessor of the Korean vest, with Duron Type2). Osprey has actually a booklet about the topic.

We had the "cock blocker" and neck gaiter since at least 2003, that was the same NIJ class IIIA as the rest of the suit, minus the SAPI. From what buddies have told me, there's been upper arm and diaper adds ons since at least early 05 as well. S/F.....Ken M

I saw this picture that claimed to be some kind of new (airconditioned?) gunner armor for Iraq:



http://www.fresno6.com/101st_airborne.htm

I think the British Army seriously first attempted to use some form of fragmentation protection protection in WWII, issuing several tens of thousands of front and back plate and groin (unsure if it included bum covering as well) protection to soldiers for the Normandy invasion. It was based on some rather good OR research conducted after the North African campaign which pointed out how many soldiers were killed/incapacitated by artillery fragments. Compared to the rather hit-and-miss efforts in WWI, it was a significant effort.

IRRC that was the MRC- Medical Research Council armour. It protected the major blood vessels going into the heart and lung and, ahem, the vitals. It was certainly used in Market Garden.

Still waiting for whatever bulletproof power armor Future Force Warrior is supposed to give us.

It seems as if turtles are 'in', and snakes are 'out'.

I've just calculated the surface area for a hypothetical 1.2 mm steel plate flak vest (1.2 mm was normal steel helmet thickness in WW2).
I was quite surprised that the weight would be between 3 and 4 kg (plates alone) with a similar layout as the M 1951 vest (steel inserts instead of Doron).
The whole vest would have been like 4-5 kg, an acceptable figure most of the time imho.

This means to me that a flak vest should have been feasible as early as before WW 1 with a protection level that's similar to WW2 steel helmets.
Such metal plates would certainly have been no good idea in winter, but acceptable in about 2/3 of the year.

Aluminium plates would even have been a bit lighter (or more effective), and three kg of aluminium per soldier, that's like 45 tons per division or the equivalent aluminium need to about 30 fighter planes per division. That was probably not worth the weight saving, but nevertheless affordable, especially if limited to front-line troops.

I'm not only surprised, but quite irritated. Did the European powers underestimate the relevance of WIA/KIA by torso fragmentation hits till at least 1944?

AFAIK KIA/WIA studies (impact area and casualty class -studies) done during and immediately after WWII launched the development of flak vests. WWII was the turning point for development of military medicine. The best era for non-NBC weapons effect studies was straight after WWII and around Korea (lots of reference material about KIA/WIA) , but later in 60's the nuclear threat concentrated studies to NBC protection.