I have posted a new article on grenade ammunition on my website, here:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/grenades.htm

Great article.

So are you of the opinion that the U.S. Army's 25mm grenade launchers (XM25, XM307) will not enter service in favor of new 40mm grenade launchers (M32, Mk.47)?

Right now I am waiting for somebody to develop some sort of multi-shot 40mm airburst grenade launcher along the lines of the XM25.

Told ya so. It's real simple, the expensive part is the fusing. If you can do it with one fuse vis 3, you save a lotta dough.
But there's always the fukkin fanboys.....

Simon

Who knows? All I can say is that funding for the XM307 has reportedly been stopped, and the XM25 didn't seem to feature in the recent NDIA presentations either...


That is in theory achievable now by adding IMI's HEAB ammo, fuze setter and Orion sight to one of the six-shot revolvers (in fact, it would be easy enough to combine this with the bigger MV projectiles). No doubt it will come sooner or later.

Why bother? A bounding PFF round or WP will do the same thing. The problem is that shit like this isn't big and sexy and doesn't make careers and cause bounces in stock pricing.

Course there's the suckers who lap it up.

Simon

Should have spent the effort in the 40mm family or else fielded a QCB M2, the Mk 47 to the regular forces and something like ASP-30 for more serious threats where you need a flat trajectory and low ToF. All ammunition families in service.

I love the fact that the R&D/procurement/fielding assclowns have/had zero problems with fielding two completely new HE ammunition families (25mm HV and 25mm LV) along with two completely new weapons systems, but suggest 6.8mm SPC and they start going spasmatic with bullshit/fabricated logisitics concerns like it's cold fusion being discussed. S/F.....Ken M

Suckers? Despite the usual DoD issues dedicated "smart" HEAB ammunition can provide a very useful capability that I am sure the soldiers would appreciate having in a 40mm grenade launcher. Yeah other ammunition can work but your going to need to fire off more ammo and take more risks to get the job done.

A modernized ASP-30 type weapon would be very nice on Strykers and in a few other roles.

I still think the M25 and M307 would be useful but as EchoFiveMike said they would caues plenty of logistics issues unless they did replace almost all 40mm GLs which is now very unlikely. Perhaps if they had accepted a higher weight on the M307 in order for a higher rate of fire and a larger warhead it would have been more suitable.

Ahh...but since bounding and WP WERE standardised rounds and formerly available until some dumbshit decided it was too much trouble, I stand by my point that there are suckers. These rounds required no fancy fuse setting sights etc. They were in the same price quantum as HEDP, unlike the HEAB stuff. And unlike HEAB, not vaporware.

You can even get 40x46 and 53mm bounding with a self-destruct mech to reduce blinds, a major hazard with GLs.

A higher weight, higher cyclic M307 and you might as well have a Mk47 etc.

The problems are not logistics. It has to do with idiots trying to reinvent wheels to make more money and further careers.
And suckers who believe the crap they peddle.

Simon

Double Tap....

All in all, the M-4 with grenade launcher is just about the best infantry weapon ever fielded.

Singapore STK developed a thing called the SSW - Section Support Weapon - already mentioned on another thread. 40mm airburst multishot etc thing. Has a 5.7mm PDW attached.

Apparently something to do with Sweden, either a JV or something.

http://www.gun-world.net/sweden/ssw/ssw.htm

http://www.gun-world.net/sweden/ssw/cispdw.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/sweden/ssw/stk003.jpg

Bouncing grenades are indeed old. I remember a 8.1cm mortar bomb (German) from WW2 and Russian 40mm UBGL ammo of that type.

The semi-auto 30/35/40mm long cartridge guns (RAG-30, QLZ-87, QLB-06 and the Philippinian thing) deserve a bit more text. Their application possibilities are very unconventional - rather like offensive support weapon than vehicle weapon.

The "dumb" 25mm payload rifle (OCSW dumb HE cartridge in a rather short Barett anti-material rifle) had some attention a while back and was in a rather unique niche.

The trend to 16-18 kg AGL weight (several such lightweight designs since 90's) deserves some emphasis imho.

FN F2000 sight unit for 40mm UBGL might deserve a mention as well, as it's the intermediate step to airburst tech.

The Russian VOG-T captive piston munition is not alone (is now finally known how exactly it works?*).
A captive piston U.S. UBGL munition (complicated name like SBCDA or such. I forgot how it was called and where I got that PDF...) existed in the 70's already as part of the then-existing gold-plated M16 successor program.

A German company developed a video surveillance round that works different than parachute - it's a design similar to AT-2 AT mines that provides video of the area where it impacted and erected itself. It was in a German arms industry journal one or two years ago.

The trend in UBGLs seem to go towards side-swinging barrels for reload instead of an M203-like action exactly because of over-length cartridges.
A side-effect (that I dislike) is that pistol grips for these UBGLs become more common as well, simply because they're part of the side-swinging designs like AG36.

Any news on thermobaric 40x46mm cartridges?


*: I'm really, really interested in this!

.............................

About the usefulness of bounding grenades:
This stuff does only work well at certain angles, which in turn means only at some distance, not close in (let's say like 70m distance).
Frag pattern optimization is also quite difficult with the additional 'push back' fuze and charge and it costs some frag shell surface.

Well, since we're talking about bouncing grenades, hopefully this isn't too far off topic...

The Chinese and Pakistanis have come up with bouncing RPG-7 rounds, here's some more info:

Type 69 40mm Airburst Anti-Personnel High-Explosive (HE) Grenade

This variant was developed specifically for anti-personnel purpose. This round works in a similar way to the bouncing anti-personnel fragmentation mines. On impact, the grenade bounces off the ground to a chest to 2m height then airbursts over the target area, scattering about 800 anti-personnel steel balls over a lethal radius of 15m. The airburst is much more effective than typical blast warheads especially toward entrenched troops.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/small_arms/type69rpg.asp


The Pakistani version has a smaller range but a larger warhead I think. They both bounce the same height but the Pak versions has a larger lethal radius I believe.

40mm HEAB is not vaporware technology, the Mk.47 can prove that. Also technically the 25mm HEAB is around, just not going anywhere (or so it seems). Naturally smart HEAB ammunition costs more but one can argue the advantage is worth the price.

I would not say they were trying to reinvent anything. To begin with the OSCW was supposed to be something of a cross between the M2 .50 caliber MG and the Mk.19 40mm AGL. It is certainly an interesting concept, and an improved XM307 a few years earlier could have easily entered service. Yet they were trying to replace two extremely popular calibers, and while the 25mm has some advantages over both it also has it's disadvantages. Plus, new weapon systems and technologies for the .50 cal and 40mm are still being introduced. So the "middle ground" 25mm failed to replace the "extremes" of the .50 caliber and 40mm and while it may be useful in a few select roles it is not worth the logistics for the Army.

Perhaps the XM25 still can make it into service but I doubt it.

Martin Electronics have a thermobaric for their 40x46mm MV range called HELLHOUND (I think).

Bulgarian producers of the VOG-series grenades consider the bounding 25P to be substantially more effective than the normal 25. The VOG is a great system if you are not interested in shooting ILLUM and cargo payloads.

VOG-T is a lot like a PIAT, but the piston propelled by a blank cartridge instead of a spring. It's quiet but clunky and has very limited range. Cute but not terribly useful.

...and I thought it was .45 M1911...

FYI it doesn't mean that if USA has fielded a weapon it is the best weapon of the world...would do you good get some perspective please.

The detail that i don't get about the VOG-T / BS-1 system is what it does with the propellant gasses. I read that they're trapped in the blank cartridge, but bleed off quickly. Well, wouldn't that be a loud, high sound?

As I understand it, captive piston systems are nto limied to HE, but can shot ILLUM and cargo (WP and others) as well. Apparently there's no such grenade for BS-1 available (btw - "BS-1" or just "BS"?)?
It should be possible to increase MV and therefore range by increasing the length of the captive piston (if pressure remains under control).

I have asked (myself) for some time whether such a captive piston grenade (in concept more similar to FLY-K, for example) would be a useful addition to M203/40x46-compatible systems for night combat.

Not necessarily, Milkor developed the side-swinging Mk40 UBGL without a hand grip (which can be added, though). The breech can be swung to the left or right for loading and unloading, and the GL can be mounted on various assault rifles using standard euro rails.

HEAB ammo is an order of magnitude more expensive than conventional ammo. It is also vaporware as far as anything for individual use goes. Took expensive, sucks batteries and not enough lethality to replace the humble M203.

Of course they were trying to reinvent the wheel and combine it into one uber wheel that would be a huge project and keep the gravy train rolling for a long time. Everything was predicated upon the quantum leap in lethality offered by bursting munitions based on the 'idee du jour' of the time. It then rode the 'lightweight' bandwagon so fashionable at the turn of the century. Net result was marginal ammunition in a marginal caliber on a platform that was not really robust enough that cost significantly more than existing ones. This was due entirely to the false prophets and their PowerPoints who did not have adequate understanding of the science and engineering involved. They were selling sizzle....not steak.

The Army has no significant stockpiles of either .50cal or 40x53mm. Now would be the time to change calibres, not during peacetime. The basic premise on which the OCSW was a quantum leap in lethality due to airbursting, allowing for miniaturised ammo. This has proven to be far less significant than has been touted for the kinda of dough coughed out.

It's a lot like selling sub-prime debt. If you tell someone what they want to hear and want to believe, chances are they will be inclined to agree, even if it sounds tenuous.

Simon

lastdingo....works like a suppressor...by slowing the gas down through energy transfer to the piston and by reducing the velocity at which ti eventually vents. The faster the gas vents, the louder it is. The gas is not trapped in the cartridge but the piston chamber of BS-1. It's a reloadable Armburst......

Yes, you can make it bigger but it's already rather clunky. I doubt you could seriously increase the Mv without signficantly increasing propellant pressure. Hi-low pressure arrangements like the 40x46mm have very little firing signature and practically no flash. (hint...low pressure)

I've handled the Milkor Mk40. It's horrible. Compact but very heavy and not particularly easy to use.

Grrr...Photobucket has cocked up my account so I can't show you the one I pimp.

Simon

ETA....1.4lb rail-mount. Tilts at the end of the opening stroke to deep throat.

I don't think HEAB and the time-fused stuff are directly functionally equivalent.

HEAB relies on:

1) There being some horizontal surface near enough to and without screening terrain between it and the target.

2) Your hitting that horizontal surface in just the right place.

A lot of the time there simply won't be a horizontal (or nearly so) bit of ground to shoot at - for example when the enemy are firing over the walls of one of those walled settlements you get in afghanistan, or over the crest of a ridge. You can't vary how high your ammunition bursts relative to the ground either, so if it bursts one metre up and the wall is four metres high, you're stuffed.

Even if you meet criterion 1, hitting a specific piece of horizontal real-estate some distance away is going to be difficult. At closer ranges, shooting from prone, it would be very difficult indeed (think about the geometry involved) and the HEAB would merely throw the bursting component almost directly back at you. You could end up using ten times as much ammo even with an AGL so your cost advantage disappears. You will also find the enemy doing his best to seek cover after the first explosion, losing the advantage that a single unexpected time-fused round would have had.

Another problem is that HEAB is (AFIK) non-selective. The rounds you carry will always be HEAB whilst time fused rounds can serve in impact mode. Nor (again AFAIK) will HEAB combine HEDP capabilities.

It looks to me that HEAB was done away with for perfectly sensible reasons and that timed airburst has a lot going for it.

Isn't HEAB also used to describe "smart" timed airbursting ammuntion like the 25mm and several of the new 40mm grenades?

I suppose the OSCW was trying to kill two birds with one stone that in the end was not capable enough. Even if stockpiles of .50 caliber and 40x53mm ammuniton were low I imagine the popularity of the M2 Browning and Mk.19 in Iraq certainly hurt the program and is one of the factors that lead to it's demise.

M2 and Mk19 production are spoken for the next 30 months.

Simon

Sorry, I meant the 'bounding' airburst 40mm grenades.

I'm at Eurosatory at the moment (struggling with the non-standard French keyboard, which is slowing me down). ATK are still pressing on with the LW25 Chain Gun in 25x59B and have developed some nice new pointy ammo for it. Pics to follow once I get home. According to people on the PEO Soldier stand, the XM25 is being fought for at the moment...

Both STK and ARCUS are developing 40mm LV time-fuzed HEAB systems.

I've also got some pics of the 40mm Metal Storm ammo which STK are now involved with. As well as the Redback 4-bbl mount, they've got a 3-round UGL.

STK is apparently one of the biggest - exporter or 40mm grenades in the world. UK is a customer. Over 3 million rounds exported in the last few years.

I've just updated the article with some new info gathered at Eurosatory: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/grenades.htm

Here's a pic from it of ATK's version of the 25x59B ammo:

Hmm, I was expecting they would halt development of that chaingun if the XM307 was cancelled. I guess not however.

Tony, do you know how does the XM307 or LW25 compare with the ASP-30 chaingun in terms of velocity, weight, and HE capability? I thought you posted something on the matter but I could not find it. I strongly believe somebody should create a modernized version of that weapon with HEAB ammunition.

Lampshade111,

The ASP-30 is not a chain gun, although it uses the same 30X113 ammunition as the M-230. The ASP-30 is gas-operated, with a rotating bolt, IIRC.

h brookshire

Yep, the ASP-30 is gas-operated. More appropriate for these days would probably be the long-barrelled version of the Apache's M230 Chain Gun, the M230LF, developed mainly for ground use. The barrel is lengthened from 106 to 152 cm increasing MV from 800 to 836 m/s (shell weight 237g), weight is increased from 60 to 73 kg, rate of fire drops to 200 rpm. The ASP weighed 32 kg and fired at 450 rpm.

The LW25 Chain Gun weighs 29.5 kg and fires at 250 rpm. It uses a 132 g shell at 425 m/s. It is 102 cm long overall.

with those multiple round grenade launchers getting more and more use, I've been wondering if it would be useful to make a revolver or shotgun type GL firing the new 40x51mm grenades or the 40x53mm ones if the recoil isn't too much, and to give them an even bigger punch/range when needed a kind of kingsized rifle grenade fired with a blank 40mm round and maybe a small rocket as well, basically duplicating the capabilities of the RPG-7.
or is this a stupid and completely unworkable idea

You mean as in pump action? My guess is it would be a beast that would be hard to operate due to changes of mass center during action.

Btw Czechoslovakia developped in1980's a small UBGL for Border Guards, basically flare gun caliber and cartridge, ammo either flare or HEAT-MP shell.

That would be the Milkor MGL-140 aka M32 to the USMC, firing the Martin Electronics Medium Range 40x46mm ammo.
Please tell them that Simon pointed you their way....!

Simon

There is also a version of the MGL-140, the XRGL40 which is designed around the "medium velocity" 40x51mm.



About the 30mm autocannons, would the increased reliability of the M230LF chain gun really be worth the major increase in weight and reduced rate of fire when compared to the gas operated design?

In a vehicle-mounted gun, does the weight matter? Especially since a lighter gun will recoil harder, requiring a more sophisticated mounting.

The general consensus nowadays seems to be that around 200 rpm is the optimum RoF for shell-firing vehicle guns: more just tends to waste ammo.

pump action or revolver type, whatever works best, simplest would be to give every squad a xrgl 40 I think. The real question though is if 40mm rifle grenades propelled by a blank 40mm cartridge and maybe their own rocket motor would be a practical way to upgun said grenade launchers when needing something a bit more serious than a 40mm grenade.

A RPO-A Shmel works nicely....

Simon

From what I hear the SMAW-NE works very nicely too. Does anybody know if they are producing the SMAW-D with NE rocket or if it just for the standard SMAW? Also did anything come from that proposal to fit old M72s with thermobaric warheads?

The SMAW-NE doesn't use the fuel-air type warhead. It just carries almost twice the explosive as the regular HEDP warhead in additional to uses a hardened penetrator cone.

Oh. The demonstrations I had seen of it led me to believe it had a thermobaric warhead.

I thought NE stood for Novel Explosive. There are broadly two ways to get the thermobaric effect. The traditional way is to finely disperse fuel in air via mechanical means before igniting it like the old Fuel-Air Explosives did. The new way is to disperse the fuel via explosive means, with the explosion also igniting the fuel. These "novel explosives" typically have a high proportion of aluminium particles of very carefully controlled size dispersed throughout. When they detonate, these particles are thrown out into a cloud before the shockwave (or heat?) from the detonation ignites them a split-second later to produce a thermobaric explosion. I believe that the SMAW-NE uses explosives of this type.