This is a rare insight to how the the Merkava was defected. Nothing technical, as it was intended as a News program for general release.
Aljazeera documentary shows how Arab resistance managed to destroy the myth of the Israeli Merkava tank.I didn't write tthis, just copied it whole sale from the person posting the video.
The 4 videos linked as one continuous video.
Link: Video Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8853586453841327363
If you can, download the video, as Google sometime, delete the video
Note, Youtube, seem to be experiencing some problems, GMT 0200hrs, But Google Video is not affected.
God's Chariot - Episode 1 - 07 May 07 - Part 1
This is the link to the small segements of the video, just in case some may want portion of the video.
Part 1 Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRePg43EafM
God's Chariot - Episode 1 - 07 May 07 - Part 2
Part 2 Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxHtx0fLe2E
God's Chariot - Episode 2 - 07 May 07 - Part 1
Part 3 Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w2JryDnnx8
God's Chariot - Episode 2 - 07 May 07 - Part 2
Part 4 Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51r41zfqALw
Full Version: Merkava tank (ljazeera documentary)
Ouch. The hit at 6:25 is clearly followed by the secondary explosion...
Nice find! Despite the propagandistic ending it was interesting to watch. "A tank is there to fight tanks, not human beings" Oh what crap...
I have just looked through the first half and some of the second half of the first episode. Some initially thoughts (as I am at work and should really not do this):
The vehicle hit at 6:25 is clearly not a Merkava, but one of the Centurion based APCs. It is a glitch in the film between the hit and the secondary, so from the film it is very difficult to make any certain assertion on what caused the internal (as it seems to be) explosion. Perhaps the APC were carrying high explosives?
Some other curious claims are made, like at 10:37 where that Egyptian "expert" claims that the 1973-war was the first time in history that wire guided ATGM's had been used. He is only off by 28 years...
In the second half of the first episode at 03:20 it is claimed that the Merkava was covered with reactive armour, while showing the Merkava 1. That is a a little bit off...
The vehicle hit at 6:25 is clearly not a Merkava, but one of the Centurion based APCs. It is a glitch in the film between the hit and the secondary, so from the film it is very difficult to make any certain assertion on what caused the internal (as it seems to be) explosion. Perhaps the APC were carrying high explosives?
Some other curious claims are made, like at 10:37 where that Egyptian "expert" claims that the 1973-war was the first time in history that wire guided ATGM's had been used. He is only off by 28 years...
In the second half of the first episode at 03:20 it is claimed that the Merkava was covered with reactive armour, while showing the Merkava 1. That is a a little bit off...
I agree, huge number of inaccuracies in the film. Like Merkavas being knocked out at Sultan Yakub, and by T-72s on top of that. Or implication that ERA was used in 1973... If not for several seconds of nice footage the film would have been completely useless (at best).
The Merkava tank is still the best tank.
From the 500 tanks Israel put in action during the war, some 50 tanks were hit by the thousands of the
"fantastic russian missiles".
From those hit, only 22 were penetrated. And from those 22 only 2 were lost, the other 20 were quickly repaired.
Some 2 or 3 others were lost due to mines.
So what's the big deal. The overall loss was thus 5 tanks. One percent of the force and that during a period of more than a month.
It is in fact a incredible low loss ans the losses of the crews were due to their exposure in the turret as the Israeli tanksoldiers
do fight with hatch open.
Wait untill Trophy will be installed.
And even without Trophy it was already an excellent tank which protected the crews formidably!
From the 500 tanks Israel put in action during the war, some 50 tanks were hit by the thousands of the
"fantastic russian missiles".
From those hit, only 22 were penetrated. And from those 22 only 2 were lost, the other 20 were quickly repaired.
Some 2 or 3 others were lost due to mines.
So what's the big deal. The overall loss was thus 5 tanks. One percent of the force and that during a period of more than a month.
It is in fact a incredible low loss ans the losses of the crews were due to their exposure in the turret as the Israeli tanksoldiers
do fight with hatch open.
Wait untill Trophy will be installed.
And even without Trophy it was already an excellent tank which protected the crews formidably!
QUOTE(Zvika @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 1743) 
From the 500 tanks Israel put in action during the war, some 50 tanks were hit by the thousands of the
"fantastic russian missiles".
"fantastic russian missiles".
Just to be fair, there were also fantastic American missiles in the mix.
QUOTE
It is in fact a incredible low loss ans the losses of the crews were due to their exposure in the turret as the Israeli tanksoldiers
do fight with hatch open.
do fight with hatch open.
*Some* losses were due to that. Others weren't.
QUOTE(zakk @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 0747)
...Perhaps the APC were carrying high explosives?
...
...
Mortar team?
Wasn't that Centurion-based APC (or was it Combat Engineering Vehicle) carrying a demolition team with explosives that also went off? I seem to recall such incident in past. Probably some of our Israeli contributors can shed more light to this one.
QUOTE(Sardaukar @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 1828)
Wasn't that Centurion-based APC (or was it Combat Engineering Vehicle) carrying a demolition team with explosives that also went off? I seem to recall such incident in past. Probably some of our Israeli contributors can shed more light to this one.
There were two incidents of a load of demolition explosives going off inside IDF APCs in Gaza, but IIRC they were both M113s.
Also the terrain looks much more like Lebanon than gaza. I won't be surprised if this was indeed filmed during the last war, albeit its late appearance is suspect. It should be noted however that such APCs were active in Lebanon for many years prior to the withdrawl in 2000, so this could be old footage.
QUOTE(Yish @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 2054)
There were two incidents of a load of demolition explosives going off inside IDF APCs in Gaza, but IIRC they were both M113s.
Also the terrain looks much more like Lebanon than gaza. I won't be surprised if this was indeed filmed during the last war, albeit its late appearance is suspect. It should be noted however that such APCs were active in Lebanon for many years prior to the withdrawl in 2000, so this could be old footage.
Also the terrain looks much more like Lebanon than gaza. I won't be surprised if this was indeed filmed during the last war, albeit its late appearance is suspect. It should be noted however that such APCs were active in Lebanon for many years prior to the withdrawl in 2000, so this could be old footage.
Hi Yish,
You are spot on. It is Lebanon and it is a Nagmachon. The incidents in Gaza involved M113s. The son of a close friend was meant to be on the second M113, but was pulled out of combat duty because of a serious vision problem. He is lucky to be alive.
The footage, I believe, predates last year's mess.
cheers
Marsh
QUOTE(Zvika @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 0143)
The Merkava tank is still the best tank.
From the 500 tanks Israel put in action during the war, some 50 tanks were hit by the thousands of the
"fantastic russian missiles".
From those hit, only 22 were penetrated. And from those 22 only 2 were lost, the other 20 were quickly repaired.
Some 2 or 3 others were lost due to mines.
So what's the big deal. The overall loss was thus 5 tanks. One percent of the force and that during a period of more than a month.
It is in fact a incredible low loss ans the losses of the crews were due to their exposure in the turret as the Israeli tanksoldiers
do fight with hatch open.
Wait untill Trophy will be installed.
And even without Trophy it was already an excellent tank which protected the crews formidably!
From the 500 tanks Israel put in action during the war, some 50 tanks were hit by the thousands of the
"fantastic russian missiles".
From those hit, only 22 were penetrated. And from those 22 only 2 were lost, the other 20 were quickly repaired.
Some 2 or 3 others were lost due to mines.
So what's the big deal. The overall loss was thus 5 tanks. One percent of the force and that during a period of more than a month.
It is in fact a incredible low loss ans the losses of the crews were due to their exposure in the turret as the Israeli tanksoldiers
do fight with hatch open.
Wait untill Trophy will be installed.
And even without Trophy it was already an excellent tank which protected the crews formidably!
And you have access to classified information?....I ask because you're throwing figures around.
BTW, I agree that the Merkava is a good tank, maybe even the best in terms of protection.
QUOTE(Yish @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 1954)
There were two incidents of a load of demolition explosives going off inside IDF APCs in Gaza, but IIRC they were both M113s.
One of these incidents is described in video, however they claim they destroyed a Merkava
QUOTE(Husar @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 1623)
And you have access to classified information?....I ask because you're throwing figures around.
I thought the 'official' count is 5 Merkavas knocked-out during the war? I don't know the definition of 'knocked-out' in this case, though.
QUOTE(gorf @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 0138)
One of these incidents is described in video, however they claim they destroyed a Merkava
As Merkava means chariot or wagon, and the mighty Gav!n certainly can be described as a wagon, at least they are 0,0001% correct on that one.
QUOTE(zakk @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 1231)
As Merkava means chariot or wagon, and the mighty Gav!n certainly can be described as a wagon, at least they are 0,0001% correct on that one.
They have apparently learned of the sinister plans for conquering the world dominance using MerkaGAV!IN's
QUOTE(zakk @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 1031)
As Merkava means chariot or wagon, and the mighty Gav!n certainly can be described as a wagon, at least they are 0,0001% correct on that one.
Or another story. They claim that Israeli tanks advancing from Metulah to Khiam were stoped by missiles 3.5 km from the border and forced to retreat. In fact Israeli tanks reached Marjayoun, which is behind Khiam, although one Mk3 tanker was killed.
http://video.nrg.co.il/lib/wmv/570/849.wmv - video in Hebrew about it.
QUOTE(Husar @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 0723)
And you have access to classified information?....I ask because you're throwing figures around.
I'm guessing he got his figures from an article published by Globes [online], Israel business news on August 30, 2006
QUOTE
52 IDF Merkava tanks were damaged during the war against Hizbullah in Lebanon. 50 tanks were hit by anti-tank missiles and two were damaged by roadside bombs, according to the Ministry of Defense Merkava tank program administration.
One lesson from the war is need to quickly provide Merkava tanks with active protection systems able to destroy incoming missiles. The Merkava tank program administration and IDF Ground Forces Command, which is responsible for weapons procurement, are monitoring two active protection systems for armored fighting vehicles: Israel Military Industries Ltd.’s (IMI) Iron Fist, and Rafael Armament Development Authority Ltd.’s Trophy.
A senior defense establishment source told “Globes”, “Although development of Iron First has made very good progress over the last two years, it is far less developed than Rafael’s Trophy system. On the other hand, the potential of IMI’s system is much greater than that of Rafael’s system.”
The Merkava tank program administration believes that, were it not for the risk of a new war, it might be better to wait for testing of Iron Fist to be completed, because it is considered more advanced. In order to create a critical mass of tanks able to deal with the threat of anti-tank missiles, one to two brigades (200 tanks) need to be equipped with active protection systems, at a cost of at least $100 million.
According to Merkava tank program administration figures, missiles penetrated 22 tanks, killing 23 crewmen. The missiles in these cases were heavy Russian-made RPG 29, Kornet E, Metis-M, and Concourse missiles, used by Hizbullah. These are tandem missiles, with a double warhead that can penetrate the Merkava’s reactive armor and steel plates 70-90 cm thick.
Tests conducted on the damaged tanks indicated that Hizbullah had full information needed to identify the Merkava’s weak spots.
18 of the damaged tanks were the most modern Merkava Mark IV. Eight of the tanks were still serviceable, despite being hit.
The Merkava tank program administration said five of the damaged tanks cannot be returned to service, including two Merkava Mark II and one Mark III. The two tanks damaged by roadside bombs were a Mark II and Mark IV, which will not be returned to operational use. The Mark IV tank was equipped with underside armor, which prevented a large number of casualties among its seven-man crew; only the one soldier was killed.
18 of the 23 crewmen killed were in five tanks hit, half of them in clashes in Wadi Salouki. The Merkava tank program administration noted that when counting the tank casualties, it should be taken into account that some of the tanks hit were carrying additional troops in addition to their four-man crews, which increased the potential casualties.
The tanks protected 90% of the soldiers they were carrying.
One lesson from the war is need to quickly provide Merkava tanks with active protection systems able to destroy incoming missiles. The Merkava tank program administration and IDF Ground Forces Command, which is responsible for weapons procurement, are monitoring two active protection systems for armored fighting vehicles: Israel Military Industries Ltd.’s (IMI) Iron Fist, and Rafael Armament Development Authority Ltd.’s Trophy.
A senior defense establishment source told “Globes”, “Although development of Iron First has made very good progress over the last two years, it is far less developed than Rafael’s Trophy system. On the other hand, the potential of IMI’s system is much greater than that of Rafael’s system.”
The Merkava tank program administration believes that, were it not for the risk of a new war, it might be better to wait for testing of Iron Fist to be completed, because it is considered more advanced. In order to create a critical mass of tanks able to deal with the threat of anti-tank missiles, one to two brigades (200 tanks) need to be equipped with active protection systems, at a cost of at least $100 million.
According to Merkava tank program administration figures, missiles penetrated 22 tanks, killing 23 crewmen. The missiles in these cases were heavy Russian-made RPG 29, Kornet E, Metis-M, and Concourse missiles, used by Hizbullah. These are tandem missiles, with a double warhead that can penetrate the Merkava’s reactive armor and steel plates 70-90 cm thick.
Tests conducted on the damaged tanks indicated that Hizbullah had full information needed to identify the Merkava’s weak spots.
18 of the damaged tanks were the most modern Merkava Mark IV. Eight of the tanks were still serviceable, despite being hit.
The Merkava tank program administration said five of the damaged tanks cannot be returned to service, including two Merkava Mark II and one Mark III. The two tanks damaged by roadside bombs were a Mark II and Mark IV, which will not be returned to operational use. The Mark IV tank was equipped with underside armor, which prevented a large number of casualties among its seven-man crew; only the one soldier was killed.
18 of the 23 crewmen killed were in five tanks hit, half of them in clashes in Wadi Salouki. The Merkava tank program administration noted that when counting the tank casualties, it should be taken into account that some of the tanks hit were carrying additional troops in addition to their four-man crews, which increased the potential casualties.
The tanks protected 90% of the soldiers they were carrying.
Another collaborative article (with less details) can be had from here
Hey, the Merkava is the death trap no1 in the israeli military since it´s introduction...so don´t come up with facts that could destroy this nice illusion!
For those who liked the footage of the Yom Kippur War and the action of the Egypts at the Suez canal, here´s more footage, 10th row from top, middle picture: http://www.portierramaryaire.com/pags/videos.php
For those who liked the footage of the Yom Kippur War and the action of the Egypts at the Suez canal, here´s more footage, 10th row from top, middle picture: http://www.portierramaryaire.com/pags/videos.php
Tests conducted on the damaged tanks indicated that Hizbullah had full information needed to identify the Merkava’s weak spots.
Really? I would have thought that would be classified information to be sure, how would they get their hands on such data? Or maybe its the fact that a tandem-warhead can do serious damage to even the heaviest armoured of AFV's whether they are top-line MBT's or not.
Really? I would have thought that would be classified information to be sure, how would they get their hands on such data? Or maybe its the fact that a tandem-warhead can do serious damage to even the heaviest armoured of AFV's whether they are top-line MBT's or not.
QUOTE(Gavin-Phillips @ Tue 12 Jun 2007 2047)
Really? I would have thought that would be classified information to be sure, how would they get their hands on such data?
Internet, deductive reasoning and analogy can take you a long way I would expect. Tapping Syrian/Iranian intelligence probably doesn't hurt either...
More like an application of the common knowledge that the belly and ass end of a tank are its most vulnerable points.
The piece was an interesting example of media perspective and spin...
The piece was an interesting example of media perspective and spin...
Tests conducted on the damaged tanks indicated that Hizbullah had full information needed to identify the Merkava’s weak spots.
Just out of curiosity, given the level of "secrecy" surrounding the protection details of the Merk 4 ... did the Israelis have any system for handling damaged Merks in unsecured territories? Something like the American teams and SOPs in place for securing, retrieving or destroying unretrievable M1s during GW1.
Just out of curiosity, given the level of "secrecy" surrounding the protection details of the Merk 4 ... did the Israelis have any system for handling damaged Merks in unsecured territories? Something like the American teams and SOPs in place for securing, retrieving or destroying unretrievable M1s during GW1.
QUOTE(kotay @ Wed 13 Jun 2007 0129)
Tests conducted on the damaged tanks indicated that Hizbullah had full information needed to identify the Merkava’s weak spots.
Just out of curiosity, given the level of "secrecy" surrounding the protection details of the Merk 4 ... did the Israelis have any system for handling damaged Merks in unsecured territories? Something like the American teams and SOPs in place for securing, retrieving or destroying unretrievable M1s during GW1.
Just out of curiosity, given the level of "secrecy" surrounding the protection details of the Merk 4 ... did the Israelis have any system for handling damaged Merks in unsecured territories? Something like the American teams and SOPs in place for securing, retrieving or destroying unretrievable M1s during GW1.
The IDF left south Lebanon with ALL its tanks.
QUOTE(DADI @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 0504)
The IDF left south Lebanon with ALL its tanks.
I was under the same impression as I have yet to see a picture of soldiers/irregulars dancing over a destroyed late series Merk. I also conjecture from the lack of pictures that damaged/destroyed must have been recovered.
I'm just curious as to whether the recovery was a happenstance of the individual unit's own actions or part of a larger doctrinal SOP. If the individual units (eg. Battalion/Brigade) were unable to recover the asset, were there any higher level formations tasked with securing/recovering/destroying such platforms to prevent enemy intelligence from analysing them?
QUOTE(kotay @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 1006)
I was under the same impression as I have yet to see a picture of soldiers/irregulars dancing over a destroyed late series Merk. I also conjecture from the lack of pictures that damaged/destroyed must have been recovered.
I'm just curious as to whether the recovery was a happenstance of the individual unit's own actions or part of a larger doctrinal SOP. If the individual units (eg. Battalion/Brigade) were unable to recover the asset, were there any higher level formations tasked with securing/recovering/destroying such platforms to prevent enemy intelligence from analysing them?
I'm just curious as to whether the recovery was a happenstance of the individual unit's own actions or part of a larger doctrinal SOP. If the individual units (eg. Battalion/Brigade) were unable to recover the asset, were there any higher level formations tasked with securing/recovering/destroying such platforms to prevent enemy intelligence from analysing them?
My battalion recovered all it's own damaged Tanks (land mines) and 3 tanks from other units. 1 damaged Merk 2, a destroyed Merk 3 and a destroyed Merk 4. The destroyed tanks were hit by heavy land charges - over than 300 kg each. The Merk 4 waited, under watch, for 3 weeks to be recovered. I have some nice videos, including TI ones, of what was a complex operation..... The answer is NO
As for the 'secondary explosion' at 6:25... nope. It's just the same explosion, shown again, zoomed in. Look at the almost horizontal line behind the Nagmahon, and the wind blowing the dust away.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
QUOTE(Bloody @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 1147)
As for the 'secondary explosion' at 6:25... nope. It's just the same explosion, shown again, zoomed in. Look at the almost horizontal line behind the Nagmahon, and the wind blowing the dust away.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
Yeppers. "Corkscrew" flying pattern is tell-tale of older Soviet/Russian missiles, be it ATGM or MANPADS. That is because the steering principle is same. Kind of funny to patch material from every decade to get result they want...not..
At least if lying, it should be done convincingly !!
QUOTE(Bloody @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 1147)
As for the 'secondary explosion' at 6:25... nope. It's just the same explosion, shown again, zoomed in. Look at the almost horizontal line behind the Nagmahon, and the wind blowing the dust away.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
The misile in the video seems to be a Sagger (by the spinning and the bright flare at it's tail), despite the one in the stills before being is a Kornet. Am not impressed.
The film is so full with BS.. Between the idiotic Ran Edelist, Junior knowitall reporter Rapaport, and Dr. Uri Milstein (A Paratrooper
) representing the "Israeli" side - And the "hey, its the 21st century, information is free everywhere" challenged representatives of the Arab side, comes in AlJazeera. They sell idiotic information to the challenged.In reality - The Merkava 4 preformed beautifully, with the most under-trained crews the IDF ever had for the last 50 years.
The Merk 3 preformed fine - and the Merk 2 was as good as its crews (probably the best crews in the IDF).
If there was (and there was) any question regarding the fate of the Merkava project, the last war in Lebanon removed it for a long time. They'll be more and better Merkava tanks coming.
The pathetic attempt to paint the Merkava as a semi-religious, invincibility symbol - that crashed in front of the unbelieving Jews, under the sword of Mohammed, is intended for those who believe the rest of the Arab bed-time fairy tales.
The Merkava proved to be EXACTLY what it was designed and build to be. Nothing less, and not a theological inch more.
Video clips from 4 decades are nice. HIzballa knew nothing more than the obvious. They missed a LOT, hit some - and that's it. The Hizballa lost in every(!) encounter. And if hitting a tank (or 30) while loosing 900 fighters, 2000 square km, their homes along with billions of invested dollars -and having to live with French soldiers for the next ten years, is their idea of a devine victory - I guess they deserve such a "documentary".
QUOTE(DADI @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 1908)
My battalion recovered all it's own damaged Tanks (land mines) and 3 tanks from other units. 1 damaged Merk 2, a destroyed Merk 3 and a destroyed Merk 4. The destroyed tanks were hit by heavy land charges - over than 300 kg each. The Merk 4 waited, under watch, for 3 weeks to be recovered. I have some nice videos, including TI ones, of what was a complex operation..... The answer is NO
Thanks for the reply
3 weeks under watch
That's a looooong time (in my books)
QUOTE(kotay @ Mon 18 Jun 2007 0543)
Thanks for the reply
3 weeks under watch That's a looooong time (in my books)
3 weeks under watch
That's a looooong time (in my books)True.
Actually it was just the hull, that took a few direct 250lb hits from the IAF, in a failed attempt to destroy it.
The damage to the hull was small, with basically no effect.
The turret was taken immediately.
The Battalion command tank carried 7 crew members.
1 was killed. The BT Commander was wounded (he has recovered and is back in service), and the rest walked away.
That from a 360 Kg charge exploding under the hull.
In my book - nothing short of amazing.
QUOTE(DADI @ Fri 22 Jun 2007 0011)
True.
Actually it was just the hull, that took a few direct 250lb hits from the IAF, in a failed attempt to destroy it.
The damage to the hull was small, with basically no effect.
The turret was taken immediately.
The Battalion command tank carried 7 crew members.
1 was killed. The BT Commander was wounded (he has recovered and is back in service), and the rest walked away.
That from a 360 Kg charge exploding under the hull.
In my book - nothing short of amazing.
It is not a Tank, It is a Fortress that has built in Tracks, and can move.Actually it was just the hull, that took a few direct 250lb hits from the IAF, in a failed attempt to destroy it.
The damage to the hull was small, with basically no effect.
The turret was taken immediately.
The Battalion command tank carried 7 crew members.
1 was killed. The BT Commander was wounded (he has recovered and is back in service), and the rest walked away.
That from a 360 Kg charge exploding under the hull.
In my book - nothing short of amazing.
Sure? 360Kg Charge.
Not to be little, this as people died in this incident. But suspect that this M1 faced a smaller charge and broke apart.
DADI,
Had been wanting to ask this question, never did get the chance when the opportunity was there.
Merkava 4,
- Has it's own Mortar.
- Space for Troops/stretcher(comfy beds in any Army)
- Own Driver remote control system, no voice need, just lighted stuff so that the driver follows the arrows.
- Own TV network...
But Does it has a BV that the Troops can use. BV British term for Boiling Vessel. Or a socket to plug in a water heater. Friends pointed me to the "standard" gas stove for my effort.
Not sure about the British SOP. Was lead to believe, in a Command Track. When the Track halts, in a non combat situation, the loader got a few minutes to get brew (tea) going for the Officer.
Had been wanting to ask this question, never did get the chance when the opportunity was there.
Merkava 4,
- Has it's own Mortar.
- Space for Troops/stretcher(comfy beds in any Army)
- Own Driver remote control system, no voice need, just lighted stuff so that the driver follows the arrows.
- Own TV network...
But Does it has a BV that the Troops can use. BV British term for Boiling Vessel. Or a socket to plug in a water heater. Friends pointed me to the "standard" gas stove for my effort.
Not sure about the British SOP. Was lead to believe, in a Command Track. When the Track halts, in a non combat situation, the loader got a few minutes to get brew (tea) going for the Officer.
QUOTE('Ma @ Fri 22 Jun 2007 0113)
DADI,
But Does it has a BV that the Troops can use. BV British term for Boiling Vessel. Or a socket to plug in a water heater. Friends pointed me to the "standard" gas stove for my effort.
But Does it has a BV that the Troops can use. BV British term for Boiling Vessel. Or a socket to plug in a water heater. Friends pointed me to the "standard" gas stove for my effort.
Standard 24V kettles have been issued to crews during the 80s-90s.
A gas stove is much more common.
BTW - Black coffee is the favorite,, and sweet black tea next..
QUOTE('Ma @ Fri 22 Jun 2007 0103)
Sure? 360Kg Charge.
Hizballa answers to the Iranian BOSS. Parsis are considered to be cheep and bureaucratic. Hizballa maintained accurate lists of every little job that was done. Including the certain exploding device on the slopes south of Bint Jbeil.
QUOTE(Sardaukar @ Mon 11 Jun 2007 1828)
Wasn't that Centurion-based APC (or was it Combat Engineering Vehicle) carrying a demolition team with explosives that also went off? I seem to recall such incident in past. Probably some of our Israeli contributors can shed more light to this one.
there were two incidents involving m113 APCs in Gaza. both were engeneer vehicles with explosives onboard. bothe were hit by rpg-7 that caused the internal explosives to go off.
the first was in northern gaza, the other was in southern gaza, on the philadelphi road, only one day seperated the incidents.
the first APC was from my Bn, i lost 6 friends in the incident. i knew two guys that were in the second APC. those incidents made me rethink my future in the army...
QUOTE(DADI @ Sat 23 Jun 2007 0956)
Standard 24V kettles have been issued to crews during the 80s-90s.
A gas stove is much more common.
BTW - Black coffee is the favorite,, and sweet black tea next..
Black Sweet "Diesel" Thanx. Heard that there were such a thing, but many could not help. A gas stove is much more common.
BTW - Black coffee is the favorite,, and sweet black tea next..
Gas Stove is hard item to beat.
One of the best posts in years!
DADI, stay safe.
DADI, stay safe.
QUOTE(DADI @ Sat 16 Jun 2007 2005)
The film is so full with BS.. Between the idiotic Ran Edelist, Junior knowitall reporter Rapaport, and Dr. Uri Milstein (A Paratrooper ) representing the "Israeli" side - And the "hey, its the 21st century, information is free everywhere" challenged representatives of the Arab side, comes in AlJazeera. They sell idiotic information to the challenged.
In reality - The Merkava 4 preformed beautifully, with the most under-trained crews the IDF ever had for the last 50 years.
The Merk 3 preformed fine - and the Merk 2 was as good as its crews (probably the best crews in the IDF).
If there was (and there was) any question regarding the fate of the Merkava project, the last war in Lebanon removed it for a long time. They'll be more and better Merkava tanks coming.
The pathetic attempt to paint the Merkava as a semi-religious, invincibility symbol - that crashed in front of the unbelieving Jews, under the sword of Mohammed, is intended for those who believe the rest of the Arab bed-time fairy tales.
The Merkava proved to be EXACTLY what it was designed and build to be. Nothing less, and not a theological inch more.
Video clips from 4 decades are nice. HIzballa knew nothing more than the obvious. They missed a LOT, hit some - and that's it. The Hizballa lost in every(!) encounter. And if hitting a tank (or 30) while loosing 900 fighters, 2000 square km, their homes along with billions of invested dollars -and having to live with French soldiers for the next ten years, is their idea of a devine victory - I guess they deserve such a "documentary".
) representing the "Israeli" side - And the "hey, its the 21st century, information is free everywhere" challenged representatives of the Arab side, comes in AlJazeera. They sell idiotic information to the challenged.In reality - The Merkava 4 preformed beautifully, with the most under-trained crews the IDF ever had for the last 50 years.
The Merk 3 preformed fine - and the Merk 2 was as good as its crews (probably the best crews in the IDF).
If there was (and there was) any question regarding the fate of the Merkava project, the last war in Lebanon removed it for a long time. They'll be more and better Merkava tanks coming.
The pathetic attempt to paint the Merkava as a semi-religious, invincibility symbol - that crashed in front of the unbelieving Jews, under the sword of Mohammed, is intended for those who believe the rest of the Arab bed-time fairy tales.
The Merkava proved to be EXACTLY what it was designed and build to be. Nothing less, and not a theological inch more.
Video clips from 4 decades are nice. HIzballa knew nothing more than the obvious. They missed a LOT, hit some - and that's it. The Hizballa lost in every(!) encounter. And if hitting a tank (or 30) while loosing 900 fighters, 2000 square km, their homes along with billions of invested dollars -and having to live with French soldiers for the next ten years, is their idea of a devine victory - I guess they deserve such a "documentary".
QUOTE(yuval @ Sat 23 Jun 2007 2239)
the first APC was from my Bn, i lost 6 friends in the incident. i knew two guys that were in the second APC. those incidents made me rethink my future in the army...
Condolences. It must be quite tough. For what it's worth, know that all reasonable people in the West (admittedly a minority) are always rooting for you guys.
Just two days ago I have clashed with one guy rooting for "the other" side in a discussion - needless to say he's my fav opponent as he's so far in the tinfoil kingdom as possible and completely out of touch with reality, thus being very cooperative... I don't have to make fool of him, he manages to do that at pofessional level himself...
Just after that "Lebanon affair" he claimed victoriously "hundreds of zionist Merkavas burning". Now he tried celebrating "30 destroyed, according to experts". When being confronted with reality, he discovered me as agent of Global Zionistic Conspiracy. I have warned him that our detectors have found a hole in his tinfoil hat and since then he was offline some time
So this Ljazeera "documentary" seems to have some viewers even abroad
Btw today he returned, claiming that Heydrich's assassination was being asked in London by Hitler who used special hotline to Whitehall for that because Heydrich found Hitler was a Jew and was cooperating with the GloZiCon in creation of the NWO
Just after that "Lebanon affair" he claimed victoriously "hundreds of zionist Merkavas burning". Now he tried celebrating "30 destroyed, according to experts". When being confronted with reality, he discovered me as agent of Global Zionistic Conspiracy. I have warned him that our detectors have found a hole in his tinfoil hat and since then he was offline some time
So this Ljazeera "documentary" seems to have some viewers even abroad Btw today he returned, claiming that Heydrich's assassination was being asked in London by Hitler who used special hotline to Whitehall for that because Heydrich found Hitler was a Jew and was cooperating with the GloZiCon in creation of the NWO
Btw. There are informations about two Merkavas *destroyed* in Gaza last days.
First one - 20 June, Mk III or IV, hit by ATGM.
The second - 27 June, unknown tank hit by ATGM and burned out, 2 wounded (here link --> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3418073,00.html )
*Found on Polish military dissussion group pl.misc.militaria, info and link provided by Michal Buslik.
First one - 20 June, Mk III or IV, hit by ATGM.
The second - 27 June, unknown tank hit by ATGM and burned out, 2 wounded (here link --> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3418073,00.html )
*Found on Polish military dissussion group pl.misc.militaria, info and link provided by Michal Buslik.
This is a question concerning the Merkava IIIs and IVs main gun. Although it might not be entirely relevant to the thread, given that this is a discussion of the documentary, I thought it would be best to post here since it has something to do with the Merkava. Wikipedia (oh, I know, the best source to quote from!) says that the Merkava's 120mm gun is a copy of, or at least based on, Rheinmetall's 120mm L/44. New Vanguard 21, by Sam Katz, says that although the M256 was originally an option it was decided that an indigenous gun would be produced (he doesn't specify whether this is an indigenous version of the M256 or an indigenously researched, designed and produced gun). New Vanguard 93 ( Modern Israeli Tanks and Infantry Carriers 1985-2004 ), by Marsh Gelbart, says that the Merkava Mk. IV was given an improved 120mm gun and that the barrel was made to withstand greater barrel pressures; is the new gun a high-pressure/velocity gun? At least, is there any information available to the general public on the gun?
I know that in the book Tank Israel Tal makes several claims that he says his 'British colleagues' would call bullshit on (one of them was that the gun had made a kill at 200km distance).
Just interested. Thank you for any information,
- Jon
I know that in the book Tank Israel Tal makes several claims that he says his 'British colleagues' would call bullshit on (one of them was that the gun had made a kill at 200km distance).
Just interested. Thank you for any information,
- Jon
QUOTE(Przezdzieblo @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 2117)
The second - 27 June, unknown tank hit by ATGM and burned out, 2 wounded (here link --> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3418073,00.html )
Where did you get the burned out part? Ynetnews article you link doesn't mention it. Just curious.
QUOTE(Catalan @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 2026)
New Vanguard 93 ( Modern Israeli Tanks and Infantry Carriers 1985-2004 ), by Marsh Gelbart, says that the Merkava Mk. IV was given an improved 120mm gun and that the barrel was made to withstand greater barrel pressures; is the new gun a high-pressure/velocity gun? At least, is there any information available to the general public on the gun
- Jon
- Jon
Hi Jon,
The Merkava 4 does indeed have a revised gun capable of higher muzzle pressures, along with a new, compact breech recoil mechanism with a "soft" recoil.
cheers
Marsh
QUOTE(Tuccy @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 1939)
Where did you get the burned out part? Ynetnews article you link doesn't mention it. Just curious.
Information was found on Polish disscussion board. Human source (
) of it mentioned Ynetnews PLUS some Palestinian forums. So in the case of the second tank Ynetnews tells us only about one tank vs ATGM and two slightly injured soldiers, "others" gives additional info/rumour (wasn`t it called RUMINT?) that vehicle burned out with two of it`s crew hurt badly.
QUOTE(Tuccy @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 1900)
Just two days ago I have clashed with one guy rooting for "the other" side in a discussion - needless to say he's my fav opponent as he's so far in the tinfoil kingdom as possible and completely out of touch with reality, thus being very cooperative... I don't have to make fool of him, he manages to do that at pofessional level himself...
Just after that "Lebanon affair" he claimed victoriously "hundreds of zionist Merkavas burning". Now he tried celebrating "30 destroyed, according to experts". When being confronted with reality, he discovered me as agent of Global Zionistic Conspiracy. I have warned him that our detectors have found a hole in his tinfoil hat and since then he was offline some time So this Ljazeera "documentary" seems to have some viewers even abroad
Btw today he returned, claiming that Heydrich's assassination was being asked in London by Hitler who used special hotline to Whitehall for that because Heydrich found Hitler was a Jew and was cooperating with the GloZiCon in creation of the NWO
Just after that "Lebanon affair" he claimed victoriously "hundreds of zionist Merkavas burning". Now he tried celebrating "30 destroyed, according to experts". When being confronted with reality, he discovered me as agent of Global Zionistic Conspiracy. I have warned him that our detectors have found a hole in his tinfoil hat and since then he was offline some time
So this Ljazeera "documentary" seems to have some viewers even abroad Btw today he returned, claiming that Heydrich's assassination was being asked in London by Hitler who used special hotline to Whitehall for that because Heydrich found Hitler was a Jew and was cooperating with the GloZiCon in creation of the NWO
LOL, He should re-design his tinfoil hat, so that it keeps whatever he has left of his brains inside.
When I was in Germany, I had the fortune of clashing with one of his kind in my hostel. He's probably the nuttiest murrican I met. A girl who was in our room also tried to argue with him on a logical level and failed... at least I got me company for a few beers later in the evening and for some of the city tour in the next 2 days. We never saw that man again.
QUOTE(Przezdzieblo @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 2131)
Information was found on Polish disscussion board. Human source () of it mentioned Ynetnews PLUS some Palestinian forums. So in the case of the second tank Ynetnews tells us only about one tank vs ATGM and two slightly injured soldiers, "others" gives additional info/rumour (wasn`t it called RUMINT?) that vehicle burned out with two of it`s crew hurt badly.
) of it mentioned Ynetnews PLUS some Palestinian forums. So in the case of the second tank Ynetnews tells us only about one tank vs ATGM and two slightly injured soldiers, "others" gives additional info/rumour (wasn`t it called RUMINT?) that vehicle burned out with two of it`s crew hurt badly.AFAIK no tanks were seriously hit in Gaza, and as Dadi mentioned, most injuries are from soldiers outside the tank that are hit by shrapnel from the explosion.
The AT rockets in daily use by the terrorists aren't capable of a penetration hit on a Merk III or IV. They have a few better AT missiles, but they haven't been used yet.
QUOTE(Cyber_Ghost @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 1540)
AFAIK no tanks were seriously hit in Gaza, and as Dadi mentioned, most injuries are from soldiers outside the tank that are hit by shrapnel from the explosion.
The AT rockets in daily use by the terrorists aren't capable of a penetration hit on a Merk III or IV. They have a few better AT missiles, but they haven't been used yet.
The AT rockets in daily use by the terrorists aren't capable of a penetration hit on a Merk III or IV. They have a few better AT missiles, but they haven't been used yet.
And how do you know this type of information, the IDF was shaken up with the possibility that they were facing a large number of AT - 14s, did they not even travel to Russia to voice their concerns.
Read carefully, I wrote daily use. Their daily rockets are self made. There are AT-5s in Gaza, but not used yet.
The AT-14 issue is about Hezballah using them, not Hamas.
The AT-14 issue is about Hezballah using them, not Hamas.
QUOTE(Cyber_Ghost @ Wed 27 Jun 2007 1603)
Read carefully, I wrote daily use. Their daily rockets are self made. There are AT-5s in Gaza, but not used yet.
The AT-14 issue is about Hezballah using them, not Hamas.
The AT-14 issue is about Hezballah using them, not Hamas.
Sorry - how many sustained damage in Lebanon.
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