I read in the latest Janes Defence Weekly that India's T-90 MBT's are having problems with their sensitive electronic components failing in high (desert) temperatures. Evidently they don't have air conditioning (if I recall the article correctly), and there is precious little room to install such a system.
As a non-expert, weren't these tanks tested at elevated temperatures to make sure that everything worked?
Full Version: India's T-90 issues
QUOTE(Slater @ Mon 12 Jun 2006 1318)
I read in the latest Janes Defence Weekly that India's T-90 MBT's are having problems with their sensitive electronic components failing in high (desert) temperatures. Evidently they don't have air conditioning (if I recall the article correctly), and there is precious little room to install such a system.
As a non-expert, weren't these tanks tested at elevated temperatures to make sure that everything worked?
As a non-expert, weren't these tanks tested at elevated temperatures to make sure that everything worked?
Someone asked the same thing a week ago.
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=16455
I would wait on some form of official word on this issue. Someone is bound to raise it in the LS as a starred question and get a written reply that will be put online thereafter.
The reason I am saying this is because this story first started with Rahul Bedi in Janes and people have picked it up from there with no other independent corroboration. Bedi is a prize jackass and a total moron. He has in the past recycled material from old articles, mixed in a bit of fiction and presented them as new developments. The T-90 had problems with overheating electronics when it was being inducted but they were apparently solved. I would not be surprised if Bedi recycled that old material to come up with his latest one.
On the other hand 2 Corps (and 1 Armd Div in it that has the T-90) just completed a very large corps level field exercise spread over Rajasthan and Punjab in the second half of May (about peak summer season in Rajasthan). Some of the old problems might have resurfaced then.
The reason I am saying this is because this story first started with Rahul Bedi in Janes and people have picked it up from there with no other independent corroboration. Bedi is a prize jackass and a total moron. He has in the past recycled material from old articles, mixed in a bit of fiction and presented them as new developments. The T-90 had problems with overheating electronics when it was being inducted but they were apparently solved. I would not be surprised if Bedi recycled that old material to come up with his latest one.
On the other hand 2 Corps (and 1 Armd Div in it that has the T-90) just completed a very large corps level field exercise spread over Rajasthan and Punjab in the second half of May (about peak summer season in Rajasthan). Some of the old problems might have resurfaced then.
Not really sure where to put this so here it goes.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/1...-2020/index.php
QUOTE
Indian Army Wants to Add Another 1,000 T-90S Tanks by 2020
India Defence and papers in India are reporting that the Indian Army intends to acquire nearly 1,000 locally produced T90S 'Bhishma' main battle tanks by 2020, in addition to the 310 T90 MBT's already procured from Russia. Impressed by the continuing importance of armored shock and speed, The Army's plan is to have 21 regiments of T-90S and 40 regiments of upgraded T-72 M1 'Ajeya' tanks, leaving the 1.13-million man Army with a tank mix of around 3,800 T-90S and T-72s. Careful observers will note that India's problem plagued 30+ year long indigenous 'Arjun' tank program (and see further program history) is nowhere to be found in this mix; India Defence believes it has effectively been relegated to technology demonstrator status under the new plan.
The Army's plan also includes progressive upgrades to India's production capabilities. At present, the 310 T-90S tanks imported from Russia under the February 2001 Rs 3,625 crore (about $795 million) contract, are divided between the first lot of 124 T-90S tanks bought off-the-shelf, and 186 imported in knocked-down condition for assembly at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. The goal is apparently to begin progressive manufacture of the follow-on batch of 1,000 from 2007-2008 onward, building on and broadening existing capabilities as they go. The T-72s, meanwhile, may be improved with their own reactive armor, electronics, sights, et. al. under the oft-delayed "Project Rhino," in collaboration with Israel, Poland and Russia. Persistent reports that many Indian T-72s lack effective IR-imagine equipment would appear to make such upgrades a priority item, but as Bharat-Rakshak notes, progress has been very slow.
India Defence and papers in India are reporting that the Indian Army intends to acquire nearly 1,000 locally produced T90S 'Bhishma' main battle tanks by 2020, in addition to the 310 T90 MBT's already procured from Russia. Impressed by the continuing importance of armored shock and speed, The Army's plan is to have 21 regiments of T-90S and 40 regiments of upgraded T-72 M1 'Ajeya' tanks, leaving the 1.13-million man Army with a tank mix of around 3,800 T-90S and T-72s. Careful observers will note that India's problem plagued 30+ year long indigenous 'Arjun' tank program (and see further program history) is nowhere to be found in this mix; India Defence believes it has effectively been relegated to technology demonstrator status under the new plan.
The Army's plan also includes progressive upgrades to India's production capabilities. At present, the 310 T-90S tanks imported from Russia under the February 2001 Rs 3,625 crore (about $795 million) contract, are divided between the first lot of 124 T-90S tanks bought off-the-shelf, and 186 imported in knocked-down condition for assembly at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. The goal is apparently to begin progressive manufacture of the follow-on batch of 1,000 from 2007-2008 onward, building on and broadening existing capabilities as they go. The T-72s, meanwhile, may be improved with their own reactive armor, electronics, sights, et. al. under the oft-delayed "Project Rhino," in collaboration with Israel, Poland and Russia. Persistent reports that many Indian T-72s lack effective IR-imagine equipment would appear to make such upgrades a priority item, but as Bharat-Rakshak notes, progress has been very slow.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/1...-2020/index.php
Weren't they having problems gaining spare parts for some of their Russian equipment?
QUOTE(Catalan @ Tue 10 Oct 2006 0034)
Weren't they having problems gaining spare parts for some of their Russian equipment?
Yes, a big PITA in the past.
A year or so back, India signed a deal with Rosoboronexport which allows for regular spares supplies & a single nodal agency to represent all the different bureaus and be more reliable.
QUOTE(Slater @ Mon 12 Jun 2006 1318)
I read in the latest Janes Defence Weekly that India's T-90 MBT's are having problems with their sensitive electronic components failing in high (desert) temperatures. Evidently they don't have air conditioning (if I recall the article correctly), and there is precious little room to install such a system.
As a non-expert, weren't these tanks tested at elevated temperatures to make sure that everything worked?
As a non-expert, weren't these tanks tested at elevated temperatures to make sure that everything worked?
These issues have been rectified- they related to the Thales Catherine thermal imager failing in the heat.
The tanks were tested - but somehow - when they arrive in India, the Army does something to them that makes the most brutally tested equipment get screwed up, again!
QUOTE(nitin @ Tue 10 Oct 2006 1158)
These issues have been rectified- they related to the Thales Catherine thermal imager failing in the heat.
The tanks were tested - but somehow - when they arrive in India, the Army does something to them that makes the most brutally tested equipment get screwed up, again!
The tanks were tested - but somehow - when they arrive in India, the Army does something to them that makes the most brutally tested equipment get screwed up, again!
its not actully a faliure... due to lack of AC after a sustained use of IT (lets say 10-14hrs non stop) one needs to shut it down for cooling or something like restart it... and IT has been addressed a long time back...
TI sights any way produce lot of heat + outside temp 50 degrees cencius (thus inside temp in tank + 5degrees... (todays tank battels are fought mainly in night so outside temp will be around 25 - 30 degrees in rajastan this is also on a max upside...)
probablity of use of TI for a sustained againgament of 10-14hrs is ? anybodys guess...
AI is know to test its equipment to extreme conditions...
QUOTE(nitin @ Tue 10 Oct 2006 0628)
These issues have been rectified- they related to the Thales Catherine thermal imager failing in the heat.
The tanks were tested - but somehow - when they arrive in India, the Army does something to them that makes the most brutally tested equipment get screwed up, again!
The tanks were tested - but somehow - when they arrive in India, the Army does something to them that makes the most brutally tested equipment get screwed up, again!
IMHO Thales is only the producer of the TI module. Peleng is responsable for the construcction of the gunner persicope system.
If the system doesn't function properly due to cooling problems. It's a belarus/Russian case (I think). Or could it be that the Catherine-FC is a low quality TI camera.
Bert.
QUOTE(Skyhawk @ Tue 10 Oct 2006 1736)
IMHO Thales is only the producer of the TI module. Peleng is responsable for the construcction of the gunner persicope system.
If the system doesn't function properly due to cooling problems. It's a belarus/Russian case (I think). Or could it be that the Catherine-FC is a low quality TI camera.
Bert.
If the system doesn't function properly due to cooling problems. It's a belarus/Russian case (I think). Or could it be that the Catherine-FC is a low quality TI camera.
Bert.
Which TI system can function in 55 degree cencius + for more that 10+ hours?
(ans)... the more one can find will let one know of the quality of TI camera or system
QUOTE(Skyhawk @ Tue 10 Oct 2006 1206)
Or could it be that the Catherine-FC is a low quality TI camera.
Could you point in the direction of high quality TI cameras? Just so that there was some basis of comparison?
http://www.el-op.com/files/PDF/IntegratedS...SASBrochure.pdf
little off topic am posting a link to pdf on Thermal Imaging Stand Alone System (TISAS) ... from El-Op.. used on Indian T-72s CIA... and BMP 2 upgrades
Pls some one let me know how good is it compared to DARWA-T,, or other upgrades available..
little off topic am posting a link to pdf on Thermal Imaging Stand Alone System (TISAS) ... from El-Op.. used on Indian T-72s CIA... and BMP 2 upgrades
Pls some one let me know how good is it compared to DARWA-T,, or other upgrades available..
I am aware of the possibility of intense user abuse taking out the Catherines. Also, what the IA qualifies as normal is often abuse by other standards- they train extensively and use regular equipment not sims etc as much as others, though the practise is catching on. Which is why I said brutally tested equipment elsewhere often promptly fails when trialled in India since the Indian user requirements are often more intense. In some cases at least, since I had the opportunity to talk to several OEMs who griped about this issue.
Case in point- using up the entire stocks of ammunition imported for the 300 T90Ss in firing practise and "overuse" of the tanks within a few years of delivery.
To be fair though, the thermal imagers are NOT meant only for night. They are to be used in all climes and conditions and are used as the primary sights by many Armies the world over.
So like it or lump it, the Thales imager has to work in all conditions- especially the Thar standard 60 deg cent. without breaking down or being cooled extensively itself- a tall order, but there it is.
Sagem LRF's on the Arjun (same dudes who supply the Leclerc FCS, and elements of which are on the Arjun) have broken down in the heat @ Thar, as well.
Case in point- using up the entire stocks of ammunition imported for the 300 T90Ss in firing practise and "overuse" of the tanks within a few years of delivery.
To be fair though, the thermal imagers are NOT meant only for night. They are to be used in all climes and conditions and are used as the primary sights by many Armies the world over.
So like it or lump it, the Thales imager has to work in all conditions- especially the Thar standard 60 deg cent. without breaking down or being cooled extensively itself- a tall order, but there it is.
Sagem LRF's on the Arjun (same dudes who supply the Leclerc FCS, and elements of which are on the Arjun) have broken down in the heat @ Thar, as well.
BTW, a question for our Israeli crew or anyone else-
- How good is the TISAS elbow sight? With drop in thermal imager & ballistic computer for the TPD-K1 on the T-72?
- Does it permit true fire on the move capability?
- If i recall correctly, the TPD-K1 is stabilized in one axis, so can the TISAS help improve it for true fire on the move facility?
- How good is the TISAS elbow sight? With drop in thermal imager & ballistic computer for the TPD-K1 on the T-72?
- Does it permit true fire on the move capability?
- If i recall correctly, the TPD-K1 is stabilized in one axis, so can the TISAS help improve it for true fire on the move facility?
QUOTE(nitin @ Sun 15 Oct 2006 0403)
- If i recall correctly, the TPD-K1 is stabilized in one axis
No, it has two-plane stab.
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Mon 16 Oct 2006 0901)
No, it has two-plane stab.
Are you sure? I thought TPD-K1 got only vertical plane stabilization - and turret got horizontal stab. I do not know how it could exactly work - but those are data I got.
QUOTE(Przezdzieblo @ Mon 16 Oct 2006 2357)
Are you sure? I thought TPD-K1 got only vertical plane stabilization - and turret got horizontal stab.
Yes, that's what I meant actually. For some reason it seemed to me the original message implied T-72 has 1-plane stab. Rereading I see I have misunderstood nitin's post. Indeed the sight itself is only stabilized in vert. plane
Nitin, did you see this? http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-to-buy-3...7-3-single.html
India buying another 330 full T-90 kits. Looks like the indigenous license production is having troubles? I thought the share of Russian parts were supposed to steadily decrease and it is still 100% it appears?
India buying another 330 full T-90 kits. Looks like the indigenous license production is having troubles? I thought the share of Russian parts were supposed to steadily decrease and it is still 100% it appears?
Vas, I am happy about the deal- for one Avadhi was still having issues with T-72 production as recent as 1998 (yes, 8 years back but still), and secondly, its overloaded with work-
-Arjun
-T-72 Upgrade
-T-90
- T72 production still going on (probably end next year)
In the MODs example of divine cluelessness, India is currently having its sole tank factory overloaded, (and that too its the OFB, hardly a paragon of efficiency) and the private units have been kept out of full scale tank production, as of yet. For that matter, not even the other factories in India, which manufacture heavy equipment, have a good quality control rep and could undertake this- are part of the process in depth.
In that sense, importing direct components from Russia and quickly assembling T-90s makes the best sense. Hopefully, over the coming decade, they will master T-90 protection and the spares issue will be met.
-Arjun
-T-72 Upgrade
-T-90
- T72 production still going on (probably end next year)
In the MODs example of divine cluelessness, India is currently having its sole tank factory overloaded, (and that too its the OFB, hardly a paragon of efficiency) and the private units have been kept out of full scale tank production, as of yet. For that matter, not even the other factories in India, which manufacture heavy equipment, have a good quality control rep and could undertake this- are part of the process in depth.
In that sense, importing direct components from Russia and quickly assembling T-90s makes the best sense. Hopefully, over the coming decade, they will master T-90 protection and the spares issue will be met.
As to why- its the usual, Pak buys something, the Indian MOD wakes up, the Indian Army cries bloody murder- after having itself contributed to the issue- so we want overmatch asap.
The aim is to field 1000 plus T90Ss and over 2000 T72s (all upgraded) plus few hundred Arjuns, by 2020.
Should be enough, I guess.
T90S production in India is to begin by 2008.
I think this basically means 600 T90s will get manufactured in India, to put a more realistic figure of round 1300 T90S.
The aim is to field 1000 plus T90Ss and over 2000 T72s (all upgraded) plus few hundred Arjuns, by 2020.
Should be enough, I guess.
T90S production in India is to begin by 2008.
I think this basically means 600 T90s will get manufactured in India, to put a more realistic figure of round 1300 T90S.
# Thermal Imaging Stand Alone System (TISAS) from El-op claims it to be an upgrade for T-90 series also... how good is it actully...
# Are the new lot of T-90s carrying any new guddies (because IA has been testing all sort of crazy equipment on T-90s)
# Are the new lot of T-90s carrying any new guddies (because IA has been testing all sort of crazy equipment on T-90s)
QUOTE(d_berwal @ Mon 30 Oct 2006 0722)
# Thermal Imaging Stand Alone System (TISAS) from El-op claims it to be an upgrade for T-90 series also... how good is it actully...
Catherine camera is second to none in its class so I doubt TISAS is better as far as the camera is concerned, though I haven't found its specs. Looking at El-op site I see it says that it is slaved to TPD-K1 - does it mean it relies on TPD-K1 for stabilization? This isn't particularly attractive...
QUOTE
# Are the new lot of T-90s carrying any new guddies (because IA has been testing all sort of crazy equipment on T-90s)
Good question. I am curious about it too (as well as the cost of the contract...)
Have they done anything with ammo stoarege to improve the safety ?
I'm shocked to see India buying huge amount of tanks known to blow up nicely when hit by ATGMs and AP rounds.
At least I hope they store ammo only in the autoloader and lower front hull , and not spread across the entire fighting comparment as it is the case with T72.
I'm shocked to see India buying huge amount of tanks known to blow up nicely when hit by ATGMs and AP rounds.
At least I hope they store ammo only in the autoloader and lower front hull , and not spread across the entire fighting comparment as it is the case with T72.
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Thu 26 Oct 2006 1822)
Nitin, did you see this? http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-to-buy-3...7-3-single.html
India buying another 330 full T-90 kits. Looks like the indigenous license production is having troubles? I thought the share of Russian parts were supposed to steadily decrease and it is still 100% it appears?
India buying another 330 full T-90 kits. Looks like the indigenous license production is having troubles? I thought the share of Russian parts were supposed to steadily decrease and it is still 100% it appears?
Vas , thanks for the link.It has some really cool info.
For example , T90S life is 650*17.5km= 11375km between complete overhauls.
Since the french are pretty happy with their 20-tounds Leclerc-AL, Indians can surely afford havin only 22 only-AL rounds in their tanks. Lower hull ist the least exposed part of the tank and additionally protected by roadwheels. The safety would be hardly lower then of bustle-designs in such case.
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Mon 30 Oct 2006 1659)
Good question. I am curious about it too (as well as the cost of the contract...)
can you come the previous cost and present cost and see the difference... that can give a clue of how diff are the new ones ordered
QUOTE(savantu @ Mon 30 Oct 2006 1631)
Vas , thanks for the link.It has some really cool info.
For example , T90S life is 650*17.5km= 11375km between complete overhauls.
For example , T90S life is 650*17.5km= 11375km between complete overhauls.
Except that people I asked were unaware of such an instrument. The motor-hour counter, check. The motor-hour-under-load counter, check. Odometer, check. A 17.5-km-increment counter? Nope, no such thing...
QUOTE(d_berwal @ Tue 31 Oct 2006 1425)
can you come the previous cost and present cost and see the difference... that can give a clue of how diff are the new ones ordered
My thinking too, except of course the price may sure have risen since 1999. I wouldn't be surprise if 300 kits cost the same (or more) now than getting half kits and half full vehicles back in 1999...
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Tue 31 Oct 2006 2011)
Except that people I asked were unaware of such an instrument. The motor-hour counter, check. The motor-hour-under-load counter, check. Odometer, check. A 17.5-km-increment counter? Nope, no such thing...
I see it as 650 hours at an average speed of 17.5km/h.Going faster should increase the wear.
Western tanks have service life rated in km ( miles ) while the russians use hours.
To compare the 2 you need to know the average speed they had in mind , and in T90 case it appear to be 17.5kmh.
QUOTE(savantu @ Tue 31 Oct 2006 1921)
Western tanks have service life rated in km ( miles ) while the russians use hours.
No. Russians used both. E.g. a T-72 goes into rebuild if it accumulates 1000 motor hours or 14000 kms, whichever comes first. But we don't use a single counter to keep track of both statistics like an article describes.
QUOTE
and in T90 case it appear to be 17.5kmh.
Either that or an idiot reporter didn't quite get what a military type was telling him (a scenario that involves an idiot reporter seems highly credible to me for some reason)
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Wed 1 Nov 2006 0043)
My thinking too, except of course the price may sure have risen since 1999. I wouldn't be surprise if 300 kits cost the same (or more) now than getting half kits and half full vehicles back in 1999...
1st contract 310 T-90 costed india 650 -700 million US$ (120 full tanks + 90 SKD +100 CKD)
2nd contract 330 T-90 approx 800 million US$ (CKD)
d_bergwal, thanks! What is CKD and SKD? Levels of assembly to be done on-site?
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Fri 8 Dec 2006 1504)
d_bergwal, thanks! What is CKD and SKD? Levels of assembly to be done on-site?
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
My guess Completely and Semi-Knocked Down asembly kits.
QUOTE(Daniel Papp @ Fri 8 Dec 2006 2152)
My guess Completely and Semi-Knocked Down asembly kits.
Ah.
Anny plans by the Indian army to equip the T-90s with Arena in the future? If not, why? Cost issue?
QUOTE(LeoTanker @ Sat 9 Dec 2006 2221)
Anny plans by the Indian army to equip the T-90s with Arena in the future? If not, why? Cost issue?
So far Arena didn't secure any win, neither domestically or on export market. There might be finally a breakthrough with SK committing to deploy it on K2, but that's the first for the system so fa, and note that they want to invest 4 yrs of R&D first, so they clearly aren't just buying a COTS product...
QUOTE(Vasiliy Fofanov @ Fri 8 Dec 2006 2134)
d_bergwal, thanks! What is CKD and SKD? Levels of assembly to be done on-site?
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
Interesting. Comparing exchange rates in 2001 and now, it looks like the contracts price in rupees is nearly the same...
CKD = Completely Knocked Down
SKD = Semi Knocked Down
The new contract looks to be of completely knocked down kits, complete assembling to be done in India.
New Goodies for Indian T-90
R-163-50u communication Set
R-173 intercom :
replaced by (Combat Net Radio, frequency hopping, with encryption joint development with Israel)
http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_defence6.htm
http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_tank2.htm
BMS (battlefield management system)(know as ALNS)
http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_tank3.htm
http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13716001
but these goodies will be put together by Avdhi while assembling CKD's
I am more interested in what extra Russians are supplying
there is difference in previous price and present price
approx 150-180 Million USD
--may be because of Inflation (but cost of CKD should be quite lesser or same than previous order)
-- has a new digital FCS come up for T-90 that was not there at the time of earlier contract.(any one can help)
-- basically lot of joint tests and development on T-90 has been done...
-- India has put lot of money in T-90 development & the T-90 of 1998 & T-90 of 2006 are very different.
QUOTE
Net Radio, frequency hopping, with encryption joint development with Israel
CNR has nothing to do with Israel. Tadiran manufactures a different range of radios, and in fact there have been gripes that the initial lot of some 300 odd Tadiran radios dont talk to CNRs. Figures, since both use entirely different encryption and probably different freq hopping methods as well.QUOTE
BMS (battlefield management system)(know as ALNS)
http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_tank3.htm
http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13716001
http://www.bel-india.com/Website/StaticAsp/prod_tank3.htm
http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13716001
The ALNS is, as its name suggests- just a land navigation system. It is not a complete BMS, which is a different project. A BMS can do without an ALNS, and rely on GPS alone. In other words, you are talking of an inertial nav system, with GPS input versus a BMS, which is a more complex undertaking, and is also underway.
QUOTE
-- has a new digital FCS come up for T-90 that was not there at the time of earlier contract.(any one can help)
There are no confirmed reports of anything of the sort; ie Irtysh and 1G46 ESSA being replaced.QUOTE
-- basically lot of joint tests and development on T-90 has been done...
Only testing would be for teething issues, and that is covered under contract and warranty respectively.
IIRC the T-72 order by India was 600 tank plus license production of around 1100 (1300?) tanks. The T-90 contract has started resembling the same.
Having said this, the total number of Indian T-72s are bit of speculation and can be anything from 1500 to 2800, due some additional import and continuing low scale production (??)
Having said this, the total number of Indian T-72s are bit of speculation and can be anything from 1500 to 2800, due some additional import and continuing low scale production (??)
QUOTE(nitin @ Tue 12 Dec 2006 1557)
1) CNR has nothing to do with Israel. Tadiran manufactures a different range of radios, and in fact there have been gripes that the initial lot of some 300 odd Tadiran radios dont talk to CNRs. Figures, since both use entirely different encryption and probably different freq hopping methods as well.
2) The ALNS is, as its name suggests- just a land navigation system. It is not a complete BMS, which is a different project. A BMS can do without an ALNS, and rely on GPS alone. In other words, you are talking of an inertial nav system, with GPS input versus a BMS, which is a more complex undertaking, and is also underway.
There are no confirmed reports of anything of the sort; ie Irtysh and 1G46 ESSA being replaced.
3) Only testing would be for teething issues, and that is covered under contract and warranty respectively.
2) The ALNS is, as its name suggests- just a land navigation system. It is not a complete BMS, which is a different project. A BMS can do without an ALNS, and rely on GPS alone. In other words, you are talking of an inertial nav system, with GPS input versus a BMS, which is a more complex undertaking, and is also underway.
There are no confirmed reports of anything of the sort; ie Irtysh and 1G46 ESSA being replaced.
3) Only testing would be for teething issues, and that is covered under contract and warranty respectively.
1) No conformation but Tadiran comm equipment was tested on both T-72 & T-90 .. 300+ ordered also may be rest to be mfg by Bel in some other name. But Y do v want to move away from russian comm equipment are they not as capable as the one being tested (Tadiran)
2) as u said no confirmed reports... on BMS also but lot of activity is happening
3) i do understand testing is to increase MTBF of systems.
4) Plus russia has lots of new goodies to offer, just trying to understand what all have been tested on IA T90.... Plus Israel Involvement in Tests ... they were not part of Testing as initial 310 T90 had nothing from Israel. Isreal acess to t-90 means a lot... IA is not made up of fools... they would have got something in return.
QUOTE(d_berwal @ Tue 12 Dec 2006 1317)
1) No conformation but Tadiran comm equipment was tested on both T-72 & T-90 .. 300+ ordered also may be rest to be mfg by Bel in some other name. But Y do v want to move away from russian comm equipment are they not as capable as the one being tested (Tadiran)
Tadiran equipment was purchased as interim, since BELs range of STARS-V and CNR radios were not ready. Now they are. Tadiran radios exist on the initial bunch of T-72 upgrades.
QUOTE
2) as u said no confirmed reports... on BMS also but lot of activity is happening
Yes, but the ALNS is not the BMS. A BMS could use the ALNS for positional data.QUOTE
4) Plus russia has lots of new goodies to offer, just trying to understand what all have been tested on IA T90.... Plus Israel Involvement in Tests ... they were not part of Testing as initial 310 T90 had nothing from Israel. Isreal acess to t-90 means a lot... IA is not made up of fools... they would have got something in return.
My point is that where is this Israel access to T-90S coming from, in terms of large scale mods? We use consultancy as and when required- as they say, dont fix it, if it aint broke. The only thing Israeli about the T-90 will be the FSAPDS ammo and the Kinetics microcooling system for the tank electronics, if they can fit it in.
QUOTE(alfa @ Tue 12 Dec 2006 1013)
Having said this, the total number of Indian T-72s are bit of speculation and can be anything from 1500 to 2800, due some additional import and continuing low scale production (??)
More like 1100 imported with 1300 manufactured locally.
The T-72 low rate production will end next year.
QUOTE(nitin @ Fri 15 Dec 2006 1020)
My point is that where is this Israel access to T-90S coming from, in terms of large scale mods? We use consultancy as and when required- as they say, dont fix it, if it aint broke. The only thing Israeli about the T-90 will be the FSAPDS ammo and the Kinetics microcooling system for the tank electronics, if they can fit it in.
Tadiran equipment was tested in some T-90s ,
some sort of BMS + GPS(majourty have a gps home grown) already tried long back with data linking capabilities with UAVs and HQ's... lot of effort on Real-time info with .....
This all should have been tested out and refined during the war excersises in past 2-3 yrs...
If you are using the posts by that Denil chap on the net, dont. Its extremely unlikely (to put it mildly) that anyone in his position would talk about details as he has done.
QUOTE(nitin @ Thu 14 Dec 2006 2150)
Tadiran equipment was purchased as interim, since BELs range of STARS-V and CNR radios were not ready. Now they are. Tadiran radios exist on the initial bunch of T-72 upgrades.
Yes, but the ALNS is not the BMS. A BMS could use the ALNS for positional data.
My point is that where is this Israel access to T-90S coming from, in terms of large scale mods? We use consultancy as and when required- as they say, dont fix it, if it aint broke. The only thing Israeli about the T-90 will be the FSAPDS ammo and the Kinetics microcooling system for the tank electronics, if they can fit it in.
Yes, but the ALNS is not the BMS. A BMS could use the ALNS for positional data.
My point is that where is this Israel access to T-90S coming from, in terms of large scale mods? We use consultancy as and when required- as they say, dont fix it, if it aint broke. The only thing Israeli about the T-90 will be the FSAPDS ammo and the Kinetics microcooling system for the tank electronics, if they can fit it in.
Could you please discuss in a little more detail in re gards to Israel working on KE ammunition and the Kinetics micro cooling system for T-90. Are they doing this for Russia or India.
Hi Eckherl,
The programs are for India. The IMI 125mm round is discussed here
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showt...17902&hl=israel
And the microcooling system refers to a product from Kinetics Ltd of Israel. The aim was to have it cool the Catherine -FC thermal imager in the 1G46 sight on the T-90S. The Catherine was repeatedly overheating in IA service, but the problem was fixed. Not sure whether it includes the Kinetics solution or not.
The programs are for India. The IMI 125mm round is discussed here
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showt...17902&hl=israel
And the microcooling system refers to a product from Kinetics Ltd of Israel. The aim was to have it cool the Catherine -FC thermal imager in the 1G46 sight on the T-90S. The Catherine was repeatedly overheating in IA service, but the problem was fixed. Not sure whether it includes the Kinetics solution or not.
QUOTE(nitin @ Sat 16 Dec 2006 1244)
Hi Eckherl,
The programs are for India. The IMI 125mm round is discussed here
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showt...17902&hl=israel
And the microcooling system refers to a product from Kinetics Ltd of Israel. The aim was to have it cool the Catherine -FC thermal imager in the 1G46 sight on the T-90S. The Catherine was repeatedly overheating in IA service, but the problem was fixed. Not sure whether it includes the Kinetics solution or not.
The programs are for India. The IMI 125mm round is discussed here
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showt...17902&hl=israel
And the microcooling system refers to a product from Kinetics Ltd of Israel. The aim was to have it cool the Catherine -FC thermal imager in the 1G46 sight on the T-90S. The Catherine was repeatedly overheating in IA service, but the problem was fixed. Not sure whether it includes the Kinetics solution or not.
Many thanks for the information.
QUOTE(nitin @ Sat 16 Dec 2006 1059)
If you are using the posts by that Denil chap on the net, dont. Its extremely unlikely (to put it mildly) that anyone in his position would talk about details as he has done.
Denil is not my source(he only claims abt ARJUNS)..... and what ever he had so claimed enough data is available in public domian for one to make his own thoughts + one can talk to his/her frnds and try to understand more...)
One more clarification...
Catherine sight was never un-serviceable... the over heating use to happen in daytime operations in thar with sustained use of Catherine over a period of time.... (time period is in xx digits continuous usage).... there is lots of misinformation on indian T-90s and indian defense correspondents dont understand defense tech.. a bit, thus adding to more confusions.
MKI'zation of Indian T-90S
Yet another major joint R&D effort between the DRDO and IMI now underway calls for radically upgrading of the T-90S+ main battle tank (MBT)
Main Features of The new Project:
1) co-developing a new gun-control system, plus a stabilised, electrically-driven turret that will house Elbit Systems' twin Thermal Imaging Stand Alone Sights (TISAS) for both the gunner and commander,
2)a battle management/land navigation system incorporating a digital data recorder built by Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL),
3) 120mm rifled-bore main gun originally developed by DRDO for the Arjun Mk1 MBT that fires the IAI-built LAHAT laser-guided 8km-range anti-armour/helicopter missile as well as OFB-produced super-velocity FSAPDS-T ammunition,
4) four laser warning sensors,
5) a muzzle reference system,
6) ammunition stowage system,
7) Halon-based fire-suppression system that is automatically activated within 0.025 seconds, (developed for MBT ARJUN)
8) a semi-automatic, electrically-driven magazine-based ammo loader. T
9) The MBT's hull will be modified internally to house a combined NBC protection/air-conditioning system (the latter for individual crew members using micro-cooling techniques) sourced from Israel 's Kinetics Ltd.
10) This joint R&D effort, costing some USD150 million, will see three upgraded T-90S+ MBT prototypes being subjected to user's trials by late 2007, following which the MoD's Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory will commence bulk production of 600 such turrets under a USD400 million project. The MBT hulls will be imported in completely knocked-down condition from Russia 's Uralvagonzavod JSC.
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1734768/posts
This is what i was talking about, if public info has started coming in,, waite for official acknowledgments by 2007 mid or end.
Yet another major joint R&D effort between the DRDO and IMI now underway calls for radically upgrading of the T-90S+ main battle tank (MBT)
Main Features of The new Project:
1) co-developing a new gun-control system, plus a stabilised, electrically-driven turret that will house Elbit Systems' twin Thermal Imaging Stand Alone Sights (TISAS) for both the gunner and commander,
2)a battle management/land navigation system incorporating a digital data recorder built by Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL),
3) 120mm rifled-bore main gun originally developed by DRDO for the Arjun Mk1 MBT that fires the IAI-built LAHAT laser-guided 8km-range anti-armour/helicopter missile as well as OFB-produced super-velocity FSAPDS-T ammunition,
4) four laser warning sensors,
5) a muzzle reference system,
6) ammunition stowage system,
7) Halon-based fire-suppression system that is automatically activated within 0.025 seconds, (developed for MBT ARJUN)
8) a semi-automatic, electrically-driven magazine-based ammo loader. T
9) The MBT's hull will be modified internally to house a combined NBC protection/air-conditioning system (the latter for individual crew members using micro-cooling techniques) sourced from Israel 's Kinetics Ltd.
10) This joint R&D effort, costing some USD150 million, will see three upgraded T-90S+ MBT prototypes being subjected to user's trials by late 2007, following which the MoD's Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory will commence bulk production of 600 such turrets under a USD400 million project. The MBT hulls will be imported in completely knocked-down condition from Russia 's Uralvagonzavod JSC.
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1734768/posts
This is what i was talking about, if public info has started coming in,, waite for official acknowledgments by 2007 mid or end.
QUOTE(d_berwal @ Thu 21 Dec 2006 0136)
MKI'zation of Indian T-90S
Yet another major joint R&D effort between the DRDO and IMI now underway calls for radically upgrading of the T-90S+ main battle tank (MBT)
Main Features of The new Project:
1) co-developing a new gun-control system, plus a stabilised, electrically-driven turret that will house Elbit Systems' twin Thermal Imaging Stand Alone Sights (TISAS) for both the gunner and commander,
2)a battle management/land navigation system incorporating a digital data recorder built by Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL),
3) 120mm rifled-bore main gun originally developed by DRDO for the Arjun Mk1 MBT that fires the IAI-built LAHAT laser-guided 8km-range anti-armour/helicopter missile as well as OFB-produced super-velocity FSAPDS-T ammunition,
4) four laser warning sensors,
5) a muzzle reference system,
6) ammunition stowage system,
7) Halon-based fire-suppression system that is automatically activated within 0.025 seconds, (developed for MBT ARJUN)
8) a semi-automatic, electrically-driven magazine-based ammo loader. T
9) The MBT's hull will be modified internally to house a combined NBC protection/air-conditioning system (the latter for individual crew members using micro-cooling techniques) sourced from Israel 's Kinetics Ltd.
10) This joint R&D effort, costing some USD150 million, will see three upgraded T-90S+ MBT prototypes being subjected to user's trials by late 2007, following which the MoD's Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory will commence bulk production of 600 such turrets under a USD400 million project. The MBT hulls will be imported in completely knocked-down condition from Russia 's Uralvagonzavod JSC.
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1734768/posts
This is what i was talking about, if public info has started coming in,, waite for official acknowledgments by 2007 mid or end.
Yet another major joint R&D effort between the DRDO and IMI now underway calls for radically upgrading of the T-90S+ main battle tank (MBT)
Main Features of The new Project:
1) co-developing a new gun-control system, plus a stabilised, electrically-driven turret that will house Elbit Systems' twin Thermal Imaging Stand Alone Sights (TISAS) for both the gunner and commander,
2)a battle management/land navigation system incorporating a digital data recorder built by Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL),
3) 120mm rifled-bore main gun originally developed by DRDO for the Arjun Mk1 MBT that fires the IAI-built LAHAT laser-guided 8km-range anti-armour/helicopter missile as well as OFB-produced super-velocity FSAPDS-T ammunition,
4) four laser warning sensors,
5) a muzzle reference system,
6) ammunition stowage system,
7) Halon-based fire-suppression system that is automatically activated within 0.025 seconds, (developed for MBT ARJUN)
8) a semi-automatic, electrically-driven magazine-based ammo loader. T
9) The MBT's hull will be modified internally to house a combined NBC protection/air-conditioning system (the latter for individual crew members using micro-cooling techniques) sourced from Israel 's Kinetics Ltd.
10) This joint R&D effort, costing some USD150 million, will see three upgraded T-90S+ MBT prototypes being subjected to user's trials by late 2007, following which the MoD's Avadi-based Heavy Vehicles Factory will commence bulk production of 600 such turrets under a USD400 million project. The MBT hulls will be imported in completely knocked-down condition from Russia 's Uralvagonzavod JSC.
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1734768/posts
This is what i was talking about, if public info has started coming in,, waite for official acknowledgments by 2007 mid or end.
Very interesting article, I do not see a advantage of going to a rifled maingun.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.